Looking for an ADC for recording from a turntable (again)

[Lttlwing16]

I was looking at the Motu M4 as an upgrade to my onboard Realtek AlC262, however, looks like it cannot be controlled by alsamixer or pulseaudio in Linux. : \

Source

 

[apson]

I was looking at the Motu M4 as an upgrade to my onboard Realtek AlC262, however, looks like it cannot be controlled by alsamixer or pulseaudio in Linux. : \

Source

Funny you mention Linux audio. In what is now an almost two-year-long quest to perfect capturing vinyl I've since designed my own device utilizing jackd + alsa powered by a raspberry pi and the CS5361/81. One thing I realized was that I hated Audacity and wanted to free my laptop from the entire process; controlling it from my mobile device. This way I can quickly capture vinyl when it's most convenient (i.e. quiet) and then grab the files via NAS later if I want to process beyond trimming and peak leveling in release context. It mounts an internal mSATA SSD at boot. Eventually added a DAC and headphone amp based on the PCM5102, OPA1656 and BUF634A. The project is progressing nicely and once we get the numbers where we want them we will send it across @amirm 's desk . The device also does playback and is a streamer of sorts.

I'm curious if you've tried jackd + jack_capture. It was jack that inspired me to add a really nice relay so you can switch the device in and out while your turntable is playing through your system -- switched in, you hear the ADC -> DAC hardware loopback, switched out you hear your turntable direct (all analog). Wholesome fun if you're into critical AB testing; though we still need to write a true ABX game into the control app so you can score yourself (or your ears, or worse, our engineering skills). I started with pulse, and while I too love it, jackd seemed to fit the task better.

I will start a separate thread about this project. I'm contemplating open-sourcing the firmware to allow anyone to run our app on any ADC/DAC linux device (like the hifi-berry + adc).

I tried to design a handsome enclosure so it could be left out in my living room.

 

[levimax]

I have played around with this and due to a cart's loading requirements you can not just substitute an ADC for a phono pre-amp even if it did have enough gain. Another alternative is using a SUT between the MC cart and the ADC. A SUT will add no noise and present the proper load for an MC cart ( you will need to be careful as many SUT's depend on 47 K Ohm input impedance of a MM phono stage). I built a SUT which terminates to a "balanced transmitter" with the proper 47 K Ohm load and then goes balanced to my ADC and then RIAA EQ is done in digital domain and works well. For non DIY I would use a decent phono stage as reviewed by Amir (to get proper cart loading) and then output to ADC. I have found most ACD have enough gain to deal with MM level output but not enough gain for MC.

 

[Lttlwing16]

Funny you mention Linux audio. In what is now an almost two-year-long quest to perfect capturing vinyl I've since designed my own device utilizing jackd + alsa powered by a raspberry pi and the CS5361/81. One thing I realized was that I hated Audacity and wanted to free my laptop from the entire process; controlling it from my mobile device. This way I can quickly capture vinyl when it's most convenient (i.e. quiet) and then grab the files via NAS later if I want to process beyond trimming and peak leveling in release context. It mounts an internal mSATA SSD at boot. Eventually added a DAC and headphone amp based on the PCM5102, OPA1656 and BUF634A. The project is progressing nicely and once we get the numbers where we want them we will send it across @amirm 's desk . The device also does playback and is a streamer of sorts.

I'm curious if you've tried jackd + jack_capture. It was jack that inspired me to add a really nice relay so you can switch the device in and out while your turntable is playing through your system -- switched in, you hear the ADC -> DAC hardware loopback, switched out you hear your turntable direct (all analog). Wholesome fun if you're into critical AB testing; though we still need to write a true ABX game into the control app so you can score yourself (or your ears, or worse, our engineering skills). I started with pulse, and while I too love it, jackd seemed to fit the task better.

I will start a separate thread about this project. I'm contemplating open-sourcing the firmware to allow anyone to run our app on any ADC/DAC linux device (like the hifi-berry + adc).

I tried to design a handsome enclosure so it could be left out in my living room.

Wow! I read earlier in the thread that you'd be exploring your own solution, so nice to see you progressing nicely! Looks really great!

I recently dove into ripping vinyl for playback on my upstairs stereo, where I cannot have my turntable. My exploration led me to put together a tutorial of the method I found best for Manjaro linux here.

Now I've got my method down (although I'm exploring recording as close to peak without normalization), I want to see if there is a hardware upgrade before I move forward with ripping the rest of my LP's.

I've looked at the existing usb soundcards, but they're essentially overkill for what I'm looking for. I really just want a high quality ADC with single line input for stereo recording, that will play nicely with ALSA.

I hadn't explored an Rpi option, but let me know if you are considering releasing something as minimal as I described. I'd be interested!

Dave

 

[apson]

Wow! I read earlier in the thread that you'd be exploring your own solution, so nice to see you progressing nicely! Looks really great!

I recently dove into ripping vinyl for playback on my upstairs stereo, where I cannot have my turntable. My exploration led me to put together a tutorial of the method I found best for Manjaro linux here.

Now I've got my method down (although I'm exploring recording as close to peak without normalization), I want to see if there is a hardware upgrade before I move forward with ripping the rest of my LP's.

I've looked at the existing usb soundcards, but they're essentially overkill for what I'm looking for. I really just want a high quality ADC with single line input for stereo recording, that will play nicely with ALSA.

I hadn't explored an Rpi option, but let me know if you are considering releasing something as minimal as I described. I'd be interested!

Dave

It's nice to know there are others out there who get it! I acquired a decent chunk of a collection of LPs from an older man nearby who past away fairly early on in the pandemic. According to his wife many of these records were transferred to reel to reel after being purchased and then immediately stored (she told me even she wasn't allowed to play them). The master bedroom closet in their home was not clothes; it was vinyl.

I have some of his pressings from as far back as 1958 that are not only mint, they were good pressings from the beginning. True time machines. So this all started as a goal to (as I promised to his wife) preserve his records forever. It's truly amazing to be able to hear all of this hard work -- the musicians, the recording/mix/mastering engineers, the lathe troll, the press operator all coming together and taking pride in their work; and this old man caring for this piece of plastic so we could enjoy it 60+ years later.

I don't apply any gain during capture but I was tempted to at the beginning. What would happen on some of my "more deteriorated" LPs is there would be a pop or click that would clip. I wanted an analog pop, though, not a digital clip (gasp!). I still need to submit a pull request on ffmpeg-normalize to accomplish my release context peak normalization. It's critical, in my opinion. Until you get that part of your workflow down, I would just leave the files untouched (or make copies) I've never encountered an LP or otherwise that peaked at the same level on each side (which they never should unless by chance).

A side note: I still vote for the VM540ML and Hana SL as the ultimate vinyl capturing cartridges. The VM540ML is such a massive step above all other cartridges in its price range it's hard to imagine there's a better suited MM cartridge for capture at all. The law of diminishing returns sets in fast after the Hana SL as far as all the MC carts I've evaluated. I believe stylus shape is the most important variable.

My goal was always to keep things as neutral as possible in fear that I would inadvertently bake some distortion or noise into the files and have to live with it forever. I have the entire Analogue Productions Ultimate Test LP captured with the M4 and 4 different cartridges. I've been meaning to post those files on a blog or something. I did it a while ago with a Denon DP-300F using its built-in phono stage. I need to do this again with a new/more robust setup. What I discovered is that I was losing a ton of high frequency information with any elliptical cartridge I tried.

A note about the Pi and 96k+ audio. Be sure to connect some drive other than the microsd. You can't write to the microsd at that rate without overruns. It's as simple as sticking in a USB thumb drive and formatting it with a filesystem like xfs. I just mount it at /mnt/audio and the pi can probably write to any sample rate your ADC can throw at it. In the case of the Hifi-Berry this is the PCM1863 / 192k. My guess is that Hifi-berry got the ADC to run to spec as they did the DAC.

 

[Lttlwing16]

It's nice to know there are others out there who get it! I acquired a decent chunk of a collection of LPs from an older man nearby who past away fairly early on in the pandemic. According to his wife many of these records were transferred to reel to reel after being purchased and then immediately stored (she told me even she wasn't allowed to play them). The master bedroom closet in their home was not clothes; it was vinyl.

I have some of his pressings from as far back as 1958 that are not only mint, they were good pressings from the beginning. True time machines. So this all started as a goal to (as I promised to his wife) preserve his records forever. It's truly amazing to be able to hear all of this hard work -- the musicians, the recording/mix/mastering engineers, the lathe troll, the press operator all coming together and taking pride in their work; and this old man caring for this piece of plastic so we could enjoy it 60+ years later.

I don't apply any gain during capture but I was tempted to at the beginning. What would happen on some of my "more deteriorated" LPs is there would be a pop or click that would clip. I wanted an analog pop, though, not a digital clip (gasp!). I still need to submit a pull request on ffmpeg-normalize to accomplish my release context peak normalization. It's critical, in my opinion. Until you get that part of your workflow down, I would just leave the files untouched (or make copies) I've never encountered an LP or otherwise that peaked at the same level on each side (which they never should unless by chance).

A side note: I still vote for the VM540ML and Hana SL as the ultimate vinyl capturing cartridges. The VM540ML is such a massive step above all other cartridges in its price range it's hard to imagine there's a better suited MM cartridge for capture at all. The law of diminishing returns sets in fast after the Hana SL as far as all the MC carts I've evaluated. I believe stylus shape is the most important variable.

My goal was always to keep things as neutral as possible in fear that I would inadvertently bake some distortion or noise into the files and have to live with it forever. I have the entire Analogue Productions Ultimate Test LP captured with the M4 and 4 different cartridges. I've been meaning to post those files on a blog or something. I did it a while ago with a Denon DP-300F using its built-in phono stage. I need to do this again with a new/more robust setup. What I discovered is that I was losing a ton of high frequency information with any elliptical cartridge I tried.

A note about the Pi and 96k+ audio. Be sure to connect some drive other than the microsd. You can't write to the microsd at that rate without overruns. It's as simple as sticking in a USB thumb drive and formatting it with a filesystem like xfs. I just mount it at /mnt/audio and the pi can probably write to any sample rate your ADC can throw at it. In the case of the Hifi-Berry this is the PCM1863 / 192k. My guess is that Hifi-berry got the ADC to run to spec as they did the DAC.

I inherited my Dad's vinyl collection, though vastly smaller than the collection you inherited! Still some great 70's R&B, 60's Rock, 70's jazz, amongst the notables. Since those old LP's weren't always in the best shape, I also built my own RCM and posted about it here.

When you state "I do not apply any gain during capture" -- I must ask -- what level do you set your input to on capture? The research I did stated to keep soundcard distortion low, record at a low volume (50% or less) and then digitally bring the volume up with normalization. If working with 24bit/96khz files, should be no loss of fidelity or dynamics. However, last night I did some quick A/B testing, and felt the un-normalized file (brought in close to peak) had better punch on the drums. When I volume matched the same file using normalization, I interestingly got clipping in certain parts on the normalized file that were not clipped with the peak gain set on capture.

-- I strongly considered the 540ML before going with the 95ML as some said the difference wasn't worth the price delta. I also have an 95E, but next to never use it, except for really old, rough records I wouldn't rip anyway.

Looking like the Hifiberry is the best option for Rpi based ADC's but not sure if it would offer better conversion than my inbuilt ADC of my Realtek ALC262. What OS would one run on the Rpi to record through the Hifiberry?

 

[apson]

I inherited my Dad's vinyl collection, though vastly smaller than the collection you inherited! Still some great 70's R&B, 60's Rock, 70's jazz, amongst the notables. Since those old LP's weren't always in the best shape, I also built my own RCM and posted about it here.

When you state "I do not apply any gain during capture" -- I must ask -- what level do you set your input to on capture? The research I did stated to keep soundcard distortion low, record at a low volume (50% or less) and then digitally bring the volume up with normalization. If working with 24bit/96khz files, should be no loss of fidelity or dynamics. However, last night I did some quick A/B testing, and felt the un-normalized file (brought in close to peak) had better punch on the drums. When I volume matched the same file using normalization, I interestingly got clipping in certain parts on the normalized file that were not clipped with the peak gain set on capture.

-- I strongly considered the 540ML before going with the 95ML as some said the difference wasn't worth the price delta. I also have an 95E, but next to never use it, except for really old, rough records I wouldn't rip anyway.

Looking like the Hifiberry is the best option for Rpi based ADC's but not sure if it would offer better conversion than my inbuilt ADC of my Realtek ALC262. What OS would one run on the Rpi to record through the Hifiberry?

Awesome RCM build! I have a generic ultrasonic cleaner I use with a similar mix + the 4 rpm LP "bather" for US $40. Distilled, IPA and Triton x-100.

You now have me wondering if the 95ML and 540ML are absolutely identical in performance and I wasted $50. I'm going to add it to my next capturing session of the test LP. Did you try any of the other compatible 95 styli?

I don't apply any gain beyond what came out of the preamp and/or across the ADC input buffer, I mean. So on the MOTU and my device the average LP should peak around -14dBFS or so at 24bit depending on what your phono stage puts out.

I have used both the newer Raspberry Pi OS and Raspbian. Both worked fine with jack. On the hifi berry forum you can find about every issue addressed. Just make sure you use the exact dtoverlay for the exact device you have and that alsa is configured to use it (or specified when you run the command to start jack and/or alsa's arecord, etc. The "pro" +adc model gives you a balanced input if you want it but I'm fairly certain it's the same ADC chip.

Very useful: https://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/raspberrypi

 

[antennaguru]

Since I already have good turntables/cartridges and a top performing phono stage I can just rip record albums to CDs with my Denon Professional DN-300CR CD recorder - which is connected to the line stage's tape output connection. Then I have the album on on CD after playback on a good turntable/cartridge thru a good phono stage and via a really good ADC. The Denon CD recorder uses any blank CD media and it replaced my previous Phillips CD recorder that I used for some 20 years but which required special Audio blank CD media that cost more as it had royalty fees built into the media cost. The Phillips unit became fussier and fussier over the years about not being able to read the blank media, until I finally replaced it.

Once the record album is ripped to a CD I can then play the CD directly, or more typically rip the CD into my FLAC music server bit for bit. The FLAC music server has an analog input but has a lower quality sound card ADC chip. Ripping it from CD is digital and lossless. The biggest issue that I noticed is that the cheap sound card ADC chip in the music server really accentuates any pops/clicks in the records (due to the overload signal causing the pop/click to hang there longer in time and be more noticeable) compared to a higher quality ADC like in the Denon CD Recorder. It's a really easy comparison to make as I have recorded a record album both ways into the music server, and there was a huge difference when listening to them both with a couple of other people and not telling them which was which. The long hanging pop/click would always give away the cheap ADC. I even contacted the company that built the music server and asked them about their analog input ADC compared to the Denon CD Recorder's ADC and they admitted they used a $1.50 ADC chip and admitted that certainly the Denon"Pro" CD Recorder would have a much better sounding ADC.

 

[Lttlwing16]

Awesome RCM build! I have a generic ultrasonic cleaner I use with a similar mix + the 4 rpm LP "bather" for US $40. Distilled, IPA and Triton x-100.

You now have me wondering if the 95ML and 540ML are absolutely identical in performance and I wasted $50. I'm going to add it to my next capturing session of the test LP. Did you try any of the other compatible 95 styli?

I don't apply any gain beyond what came out of the preamp and/or across the ADC input buffer, I mean. So on the MOTU and my device the average LP should peak around -14dBFS or so at 24bit depending on what your phono stage puts out.

I have used both the newer Raspberry Pi OS and Raspbian. Both worked fine with jack. On the hifi berry forum you can find about every issue addressed. Just make sure you use the exact dtoverlay for the exact device you have and that alsa is configured to use it (or specified when you run the command to start jack and/or alsa's arecord, etc. The "pro" +adc model gives you a balanced input if you want it but I'm fairly certain it's the same ADC chip.

Very useful: https://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/raspberrypi

I see..so the Motu's line input doesn't have a gain control, so it essentially digitizes at the level it's fed from the phono stage, then outputs to the usb.

How do you handle the capture volume at the kernel level/ALSA?

 

[apson]

How do you handle the capture volume at the kernel level/ALSA?

If I remember right you can use the the alsa software volume plugin (softvol?) to set a min and max db. I don't mess with that. I'm going to check this out now.

 

[Snarfie]

Using a Allen & Heath Xone 4D

 

[Ticinese]

As RIAA phono preamp I use a Pass Labs XP-17 (MC & MM, variable input settings). I've made a little comparison of 3 ADCs using PCM 192-24 HRA files:
. Lake People RS 04 ADC,
. Mytek Brooklyn ADC and
. Acousence ADDA 191-Ref.
I've chosen the Mytek Brooklyn ADC. The sound is fantastically transparent, just as I need it for my business. I have some hires PCM 192-24 sound samples on my website - for those interested: www [dot] KlangAura [dot] ch
(language selection top right).

 

[Lambda]

I was actually thinking about getting MOTU M4 as well, then I found out about EVGA nu audio pro and it seemed like a better choice.

Motu M4 looks like the way better choice for this!

If you have an MC system you could connect it directly to the MIC input of the M4 and do the RIAA deemphasis by software.

This is what i would do.

 

[Badbruno]

Has anyone tried the PS Audio Nuwave phone converter.
VPI turntable ——> J3+ phone preamp —-> NuWave converter into 8 Channel Dac with DSP. This way I can introduce FIR convolution filters for 3 way active speakers and room correction on vinyl input .