Life without tone controls etc.

[Chrispy]

I’m not sure what escksu meant in referring to DACs etc as the source, but I take his basic point as a good one. It’s been made here before: Many people on a forum like this claim to want accuracy to the source as their ideal. Well, that’s what you essentially get once you have set up an accurate system.

Once you start playing with tone controls to “fix” certain tracks because you don’t like how they sound, you’ve departed from that stated goal and now it’s about personal preference.

Accurate to what speakers/room/volume level?

 

[MattHooper]

Accurate to what speakers/room/volume level?

Ask the person seeking accuracy

 

[Chrispy]

Ask the person seeking accuracy

I thought I was. Your hearing is even across all frequencies at any volume level? Amazing....

 

[Galliardist]

Rooms add coloration. Recording adds coloration. It's a senseless search for a mythical ideal.

Really it’s a search for a working compromise in each particular situation

 

[Chrispy]

Really it’s a search for a working compromise in each particular situation

Yep, usually made more adaptable by eq/dsp options. Having none at all makes little sense.

 

[escksu]

I’m not sure what escksu meant in referring to DACs etc as the source, but I take his basic point as a good one. It’s been made here before: Many people on a forum like this claim to want accuracy to the source as their ideal. Well, that’s what you essentially get once you have set up an accurate system.

Once you start playing with tone controls to “fix” certain tracks because you don’t like how they sound, you’ve departed from that stated goal and now it’s about personal preference.

My meaning of source is anything that is feeding signals into the amp. Many DACs today does more than just converting digital to analog. Some have EQ + room correction etc..... So, if you want to change the tones etc, do it there instead.

Yes, the consensus I get from this forum is that many pple wanted the sound to be as similar to the recording as possible. If the recording is poor, its an issue with the recording, not the gear. The gear is just reproducing it faithfully without any alteration.

 

[MattHooper]

I thought I was. Your hearing is even across all frequencies at any volume level? Amazing....

No, I’m personally not dogmatic about chasing technical accuracy.

 

[Chrispy]

No, I’m personally not dogmatic about chasing technical accuracy.

Just what is technical accuracy in any home setup? Seems many are operating on illusions of just how that works....

 

[0bs3rv3r]

I personally never agreed with the disappearance of tone controls back when it happened, and still don't. Chasing a mythical accuracy that never existed in the recording to start with is a fool's errand. The tried, and largely succeeded for a while, to kill off equalisers too. Funny how, as soon as we moved into digital software players, equalisers all suddenly appeared again. My favourite player has eq AND tone controls as well.

 

[mhardy6647]

What is this tone control of which you speak?

 

[MattHooper]

Just what is technical accuracy in any home setup? Seems many are operating on illusions of just how that works....

To pile up on cliches: you’ve started off on the wrong foot, aren’t “catching my drift” and are “barking up the wrong tree.” ;-)

 

[pjug]

I wish my preamp had tone control. Instead it has panel control of a multitude of DAC filter options which I find completely useless. I do have software tone control in my streamer. Maybe I should be happy I don't have to get off my rear end to use it but I'd rather have knobs for this.

 

[thewas]

Floyd Toole’s response is also quick, “Sadly, many "high end" products do not have tone controls - dumb. It is assumed that recordings are universally "perfect" - wrong!”

Here is also the original ASR link which is directly also linked on the #1 post of your link

Some comments from Floyd Toole about room curve targets, room EQ and more

Room curve targets Every so often it is good to review what we know about room curves, targets, etc. Almost 50 years of double-blind listening tests have shown persuasively that listeners like loudspeakers with flat, smooth, anechoic on-axis and listening-window frequency responses. Those with...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Trell]

I wish my preamp had tone control. Instead it has panel control of a multitude of DAC filter options which I find completely useless. I do have software tone control in my streamer. Maybe I should be happy I don't have to get off my rear end to use it but I'd rather have knobs for this.

This is one of the things I like with the RME ADI-2 DAC that it has two knobs for tone control for quickly changing to taste. The tone controls can be configured in more detail but then one has to enter menus to do so.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Any decent EQ can help, IMHO.

And change eq each time you listen to a recording that is different from the next to fit your taste? Too much work for me.
: P

 

[Gregss]

Hello,

IMHO: Douglas Self got it right when he stated :

"Tone-controls cause an audible deterioration even when set to the flat position."
This is usually blamed on "phase-shift". At the time of writing, tone controls on a preamp badly damage its chances of street (or rather sitting-room) credibility, for no good reason. Tone-controls set to 'flat' cannot possibly contribute any extra phase-shift and must be inaudible. My view is that they are absolutely indispensable for correcting room acoustics, loudspeaker shortcomings, or tonal balance of the source material, and that a lot of people are suffering sub-optimal sound as a result of this fashion. It is now commonplace for audio critics to suggest that frequency-response inadequacies should be corrected by changing loudspeakers. This is an extraordinarily expensive way of avoiding tone-controls."

Also, a balance control is quite nice to have if you have an unusual shaped room and can't have you favorite chair in the middle of the sweat spot. Not everybody has even close to an ideal shaped room or setup. That is just life in the real world.

Article is on Douglas's web site: http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm

Regards,
Greg

 

[cany89]

@Seeker-Smith I'm not a fan of tone controls on pre-amps but what really makes difference is either a DSP like Adi-2 or a good software solution that you can play with the settings on the go. The most basic example: Adi-2 has a plus/minus 6 dB bass option. You can set the filter frequency and Q value from the menu for once. Then it's just a plus/minus button (0.5 dB increments) on the remote...

Let's say you were listening to a properly produced, relatively new album - Symphony X, Underworld - then you switch to 92' Dream Theater, Images and Words. Boom! There is no bass below 100-120hz. Now you can listen to it that way. I did listen to music flat for years. Or just give it a few dB bass boosts and enjoy the older, uncompressed recordings more. The same goes for treble.

I use PEQ on both speaker and headphones, that's a different story though.


(Albums are just examples, Images and Words may or may not have proper bass lol)

 

[Godataloss]

Dirac has improved my listening experience ten fold. I feel no need to eq individual recordings now that my room is behaving and the house curve is to my liking.

 

[Plcamp]

I used to like minidsp2x4hd ability to store four different eq profiles … one I programmed as a “party mode” setting that boosted bass and limited max output to driver-safe levels.

 

[pjug]

Hello,

IMHO: Douglas Self got it right when he stated :

"Tone-controls cause an audible deterioration even when set to the flat position."
This is usually blamed on "phase-shift". At the time of writing, tone controls on a preamp badly damage its chances of street (or rather sitting-room) credibility, for no good reason. Tone-controls set to 'flat' cannot possibly contribute any extra phase-shift and must be inaudible. My view is that they are absolutely indispensable for correcting room acoustics, loudspeaker shortcomings, or tonal balance of the source material, and that a lot of people are suffering sub-optimal sound as a result of this fashion. It is now commonplace for audio critics to suggest that frequency-response inadequacies should be corrected by changing loudspeakers. This is an extraordinarily expensive way of avoiding tone-controls."

Also, a balance control is quite nice to have if you have an unusual shaped room and can't have you favorite chair in the middle of the sweat spot. Not everybody has even close to an ideal shaped room or setup. That is just life in the real world.

Article is on Douglas's web site: http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm

Regards,
Greg

The preamps I've had with tone control all have a defeat option. Even my lowly Lepai amp has that.