KTB vs Topping E30 listening tests

[mansr]

Anyway, it is Klein Tools MM200.

AC voltage on that model is only specified at 50-60 Hz. It's completely useless for this task. The input impedance of the meter probably drops considerably with rising frequency (it usually does). If the output impedance differs between the two DACs, this is can easily explain the measurements. A slow roll-off reconstruction filter on one of them could also be responsible.

 

[ElNino]

I read that it is super slow. I would say filter does not really matter as those affect only 20K and up. My measurements only until 10K.

Super slow has measurable rolloff at 10kHz.

 

[SIY]

I read that it is super slow. I would say filter does not really matter as those affect only 20K and up. My measurements only until 10K.

Depends on the filter. I would look at that first.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Super slow has measurable rolloff at 10kHz.

Which one should I used? I see chart for it, but the chart got cut off way higher than 10K.

Also, the divergence happen more starting at 5K..

 

[Pdxwayne]

AC voltage on that model is only specified at 50-60 Hz. It's completely useless for this task. The input impedance of the meter probably drops considerably with rising frequency (it usually does). If the output impedance differs between the two DACs, this is can easily explain the measurements. A slow roll-off reconstruction filter on one of them could also be responsible.

And amp won't have same reactions based on output impedance?

 

[Pdxwayne]

Depends on the filter. I would look at that first.

Note that divergence happened more starting at 5Khz....Are you sure super slow affect 5K tone?

 

[ElNino]

Note that divergence happened more starting at 5Khz....Are you sure super slow affect 5K tone?

Super slow has no droop at 5kHz but a slight boost before 5kHz which could account for the difference: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-y_jia78Uhuk/Ua7QOMVSWPI/AAAAAAAAA9E/4dC1YTr7fdM/s1600/Teac+Spectrum.png

I'd use one of the two sharp filters, preferably setting both DACs to linear phase sharp.

 

[SIY]

Super slow has no droop at 5kHz but a slight boost before 5kHz which could account for the difference: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-y_jia78Uhuk/Ua7QOMVSWPI/AAAAAAAAA9E/4dC1YTr7fdM/s1600/Teac+Spectrum.png

I'd use one of the two sharp filters, preferably setting both DACs to linear phase sharp.

Looks like a few tenths of a dB down (ref 1 kHz) at 5 kHz.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Wow, I decided to just do one more measurement with E30 using filter #1 (sharp). It is eye opening. Now it is E30 that got more energies in the highs pass 5Khz. I wonder why could anyone said all DAC sounds the same?

 

[ElNino]

Wow, I decided to just do one more measurement with E30 using filter #1 (sharp). It is eye opening. Now it is E30 that got more energies in the highs pass 5Khz. I wonder why could anyone said all DAC sounds the same?

View attachment 100070

If you look at the time domain performance (impulse response) there's an even larger difference between super slow and linear phase sharp. That's a whole separate potential audibility rabbit hole though that you probably want to avoid for this test.

 

[Pdxwayne]

If you look at the time domain performance (impulse response) there's an even larger difference between super slow and linear phase sharp. That's a whole separate potential audibility rabbit hole though that you probably want to avoid for this test.

Since I have been using super slow on E30 for listening test, and it was said super slow is audible, it would mean my kids and I actually did not imagine we heard sharper highs with KTB. : P

Based on my measurement so far, it seems that I can't really do apple to apple comparisons.... : (

 

[SIY]

All competent DACs (vast majority) sound the same. Unfortunately, some of them get fashion filters tacked on... but really, that’s no different than a bass or treble control on an amp.

 

[ElNino]

Since I have been using super slow on E30 for listening test, and it was said super slow is audible, it would mean my kids and I actually did not imagine we heard sharper highs with KTB. : P

Based on my measurement so far, it seems that I can't really do apple to apple comparisons.... : (

The linear phase sharp filters are pretty close apples-to-apples, but if you really want a perfect apples-to-apples comparison, you can always upsample in software first with both DACs. Even just upsampling to 88.2/96kHz will push most of the hardware filter differences out of the realm of audibility. (But leave the E30 in linear phase sharp.)

 

[Pdxwayne]

Super slow has no droop at 5kHz but a slight boost before 5kHz which could account for the difference: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-y_jia78Uhuk/Ua7QOMVSWPI/AAAAAAAAA9E/4dC1YTr7fdM/s1600/Teac+Spectrum.png

I'd use one of the two sharp filters, preferably setting both DACs to linear phase sharp.

Unfortunately, KTB only have no adjustable filter.

 

[Pdxwayne]

All competent DACs (vast majority) sound the same. Unfortunately, some of them get fashion filters tacked on... but really, that’s no different than a bass or treble control on an amp.

Yeah, can we now say Topping/SMSL offerings do not sound the same....even if they are measured to be transparent? Instead of some people here keep telling new comers that all new comers heard was their imaginations, we add that built-in filter disclaminer?

 

[Pdxwayne]

The linear phase sharp filters are pretty close apples-to-apples, but if you really want a perfect apples-to-apples comparison, you can always upsample in software first with both DACs. Even just upsampling to 88.2/96kHz will push most of the hardware filter differences out of the realm of audibility. (But leave the E30 in linear phase sharp.)

Hmm, would listening to Tidal master help in this case? The E30 shows 88.2 in its display when I play Tidal Master songs. Still, the E30 sharp setting show much more highs energies after 5Khz, but will be interesting to listen to the differences...

 

[ElNino]

Hmm, would listening to Tidal master help in this case? The E30 shows 88.2 in its display when I play Tidal Master songs. Still, the E30 sharp setting show much more highs energies after 5Khz, but will be interesting to listen to the differences...

Tidal masters are usable for this, but ONLY if neither DAC supports MQA. The MQA upsampling filters all apply a ~2dB boost around 20kHz after the first unfold performed by Tidal. If you're comparing one DAC with MQA support and one without, the one without MQA support will sound darker. It's one of the unfortunate things about MQA-encoded tracks.

 

[SIY]

Yeah, can we now say Topping/SMSL offerings do not sound the same....even if they are measured to be transparent? Instead of some people here keep telling new comers that all new comers heard was their imaginations, we add that built-in filter disclaminer?

It’s no different than telling someone to set their tone controls to flat for amp comparisons.

 

[Pdxwayne]

It’s no different than telling someone to set their tone controls to flat for amp comparisons.

Unfortunately, in this case, there is no way to set both to flat for apple to apple comparisons.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Just for completeness, here is the table to all E30 filters