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Klipsch K-402 another controlled directivity horn

hvbias

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I've been looking into the "piece meal" Jubilee system which uses a tapped bass horn and K-402 horn above it. This isn't the old school Klipsch school of design which I am not a fan of probably because the FR is all over the place. K-402 was designed by Roy Delgado around objective design goals. The upper horn has excellent pattern control all the way down to where it crosses with the bass horn.

IMHO outside of directivity control the real benefits of horn loading are in the bass where there is quite a bit of driver excursion and energy. Since the bins sensitivity is also much higher (I think Klipsch claim ~ 101-105 db/w, I was not able to find an exact number. 105 seems really high) than a direct radiator there is also less padding down on the upper horn/CD.


(this is for a multi entry "Synergy" type horn)

More on the piece meal version- cinema dealers let you buy the bass horn and K-402 without a passive crossover and the designer of the system has done full anechoic measurements for the active version. I think this is based around miniDSP. The compression driver options are Klipsch (someone else makes this, maybe BMS) or the TAD 4002.

Downsides are even piece meal the system is pretty expensive. Prices from a few years ago look to be around $8k range a pair and it might have gone up. TAD 4002 are $6k. And of course the speakers are enormous, though I have read they work in smaller spaces since they are controlled directivity. This isn't an issue for me. And your pal with the Magicos will make a face like someone farted when you tell him you own a Klipsch. I'm planning to listen to a couple of versions, I'll report back if anyone cares about sighted listening thoughts.
 
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fas42

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hvbias

hvbias

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A DIY system using an old PWK style bass horn. Not the system I'm referring to in my post.

Jubilees are cinema speakers?
That seems to be the way they are marketing them, since they aren't part of their consumer line. Just an educated guess since it is designed objectively they are targeting home theater owners who are more in tune to proper design than audiophiles.

I didn't mention this in the first post, I also like that numerous people have said you can get in touch with the designer directly for purchasing, crossover advice, etc.
 

watchnerd

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A DIY system using an old PWK style bass horn. Not the system I'm referring to in my post.



That seems to be the way they are marketing them, since they aren't part of their consumer line. Just an educated guess since it is designed objectively they are targeting home theater owners who are more in tune to proper design than audiophiles.

I didn't mention this in the first post, I also like that numerous people have said you can get in touch with the designer directly for purchasing, crossover advice, etc.
Hmmm..wonder if he would do an active design using DSP.

You could use the same amps/DSP combo they use for the 7 series.
 

fas42

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A DIY system using an old PWK style bass horn. Not the system I'm referring to in my post.
Something more like this perhaps ...

 
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hvbias

hvbias

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Hmmm..wonder if he would do an active design using DSP.

You could use the same amps/DSP combo they use for the 7 series.
I mentioned active crossover DSP is fully supported by the designer ;) I'd even guess that it is more popular than the passive, or the active users are just more vocal about it. If this was passive only I wouldn't have as much interest.
 

watchnerd

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I mentioned active crossover DSP is fully supported by the designer ;) I'd even guess that it is more popular than the passive, or the active users are just more vocal about it. If this was passive only I wouldn't have as much interest.
Is that included in the $8k?

Otherwise, if it were me, I'd also be looking at the JBL 4429 in the $8k range if one likes horns.
 
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hvbias

hvbias

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Is that included in the $8k?

Otherwise, if it were me, I'd also be looking at the JBL 4429 in the $8k range if one likes horns.
That price was from a few years ago, if I had to guess it's gone up since then. It's just for the bass horn and mid/treble horn with drivers for both. I'm not going to use miniDSP, I'm going the Acourate route for whatever speakers I end up with.

I've never heard of the 4429. The 4367 (big thread about it here) is one other speaker I'm considering since it's also one of the Harman objectively designed speakers and more or less a passive M2.

What I like about the Klipsch is that it horn loads the bass, where horn loading is theoretically better than a direct radiator given the excursions that a woofer sees (considerably reduced when horn loading, which means less distortion). Horn loading compression drivers is only useful for managing directivity. Otherwise normal direct radiator mid/tweeters hardly see any excursion. It's possible to have excellent directivity without a waveguide/horn with direct radiators with good crossovers and proper drivers and sizes. Designing a mid/treble waveguide/horn with no horn honk is no trivial task and the multiple round horns stacked on top of each other is audiophool nonsense.

Some people say that the low double digit distortion in the bass from a direct radiator doesn't matter. Ideally I'd like to hear proper horn loaded bass and really good direct radiator bass in a blind test, but I don't think I'll ever have that opportunity.
 

watchnerd

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Some people say that the low double digit distortion in the bass from a direct radiator doesn't matter. Ideally I'd like to hear proper horn loaded bass and really good direct radiator bass in a blind test, but I don't think I'll ever have that opportunity.
I've never even seen distortion stats for horn loaded bass. Is it much better?
 
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hvbias

hvbias

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I've never even seen distortion stats for horn loaded bass. Is it much better?
I don't have any of them saved, this is just from years of reading DIY forums and seeing measurements people posted. You'll never get an apples to apples comparison since the T/S parameters for a driver that can be used horn loaded will be different from one in a box.

Also worth mentioning is these measurements are mostly for subwoofers, not midbass like the Klipsch mentioned in this thread. On average I would say distortion is roughly 10% less for horn loaded bass. I'm not sure if this is audible or not.
 

oivavoi

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Any updates on this, hvbias? The Klipsch jubilee is one of the speakers I'd really like to audition. Probably too big for my girlfriend and our living room, though. (edit: undoubtedly too big for my girlfriend)

One of the most impressive audio experiences of my life was listening to a DIY oversized horn system, also objectively designed. Made me understand that horns can sound really good if done well. The other commercial horn design I'm curious about, in addition to the Jubilee, is Danley SH-50.
 
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oivavoi

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Yeah...as long as my listening room is also our main living room, there is no way my wife is going to tolerate those.
I know. But here in Norway many DIYers have gone in the horn direction in recent years. And they claim that a horn needs to be big to really work. Otherwise you will get coloration and distortion. An added benefit of big horns is that they fill up most of the room with sound, that nevertheless is directional and precise. Smaller horns will have a sound field with clear boundaries, and very bad sound outside of these boundaries.

Another explanation, of course, is that these guys just have small penises and therefore like big things. Still, I tend to think they might be on to something.
 
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Sal1950

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hvbias

hvbias

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Thread Starter #18
Any updates on this, hvbias? The Klipsch jubilee is one of the speakers I'd really like to audition. Probably too big for my girlfriend and our living room, though. (edit: undoubtedly too big for my girlfriend)

One of the most impressive audio experiences of my life was listening to a DIY oversized horn system, also objectively designed. Made me understand that horns can sound really good if done well. The other commercial horn design I'm curious about, in addition to the Jubilee, is Danley SH-50.
Not yet. I'm not sure when I will make the trip to Hope, I like to plan these things as vacations... not a whole lot to do in that part of the midwest :eek:

Your fellow country men are indeed quite the horny crew. One guy I would suggest getting in contact with is Omholt (goes by Bjorn on the Klipsch forum), he is going about it in a more objective manner than other Norwegian horn installs I've seen. I'm also intrigued by his Jubilee bass bin straight horn replacement. That thread does delve into blabber and bullshit and sadly the thread starter gets a bit fed up of it as well and he hasn't updated the thread in a while.

He has also built Keele CBT36 arrays.

One thing I want to read more about is the effect on folded horns that have to operate fairly high into the lower midrange/upper bass. They need EQ for a flat response. The Klipsch forum is not the most neutral place for information.

IMHO it is only worth going down the DIY horn route if you want to do a lot of research, Bjorn Kolbrek has done a PHD on horn theory, if you're into math check his work out. And the other option is going with proven objective designs, these are far fewer and one reason the Jubilee interested me.
 
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oivavoi

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Cool that you know Bjørn! I know him already. Super-competent and nice guy. And yap, I'm also intrigued by the CBTs, even though it's a different concept.
 
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hvbias

hvbias

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Cool that you know Bjørn! I know him already. Super-competent and nice guy. And yap, I'm also intrigued by the CBTs, even though it's a different concept.
I don't know him, just an observer :D

I really enjoyed reading Don Keele's papers. For me they seem more like home theater speakers with their wide coverage; for stereo use I imagine they'd need quite a bit of side wall treatment. IIRC Bjorn liked the Jubilee more, but don't quote me on that.
 

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