Klipsch K-402 another controlled directivity horn

[oivavoi]

IMHO it is only worth going down the DIY horn route if you want to do a lot of research, Bjorn Kolbrek has done a PHD on horn theory, if you're into math check his work out. And the other option is going with proven objective designs, these are far fewer and one reason the Jubilee interested me.

I agree btw. I will never build or construct a horn diy system myself. If if ever get the space for big horns, it's either going to be something that is commercially available, like the jubilee or the danley horns, or a finished system I might be able to buy from a DIYer.

 

[hvbias]

I agree btw. I will never build or construct a horn diy system myself. If if ever get the space for big horns, it's either going to be something that is commercially available, like the jubilee or the danley horns, or a finished system I might be able to buy from a DIYer.

I've heard the Danley SH50 in a home theater setup. Very dynamic speakers and excellent for that use.

When it came to music the coloration was no where as bad as what you hear on Avant-Garde, Cessaro and their kind, but I was aware that I was listening to horn speakers.

If you get in touch with Bjorn I'm interested to hear if he has made further progress with his midbass horn. IIRC he is taking it commercial so that might be why he hasn't updated the threads he posts in.

 

[oivavoi]

Cool. Thanks for sharing your listening experience with them. I've only heard Avantgarde one time, the Zero XD, and I didn't like them at all on that occasion.

 

[hvbias]

Any updates on this, hvbias? The Klipsch jubilee is one of the speakers I'd really like to audition. Probably too big for my girlfriend and our living room, though. (edit: undoubtedly too big for my girlfriend)

One of the most impressive audio experiences of my life was listening to a DIY oversized horn system, also objectively designed. Made me understand that horns can sound really good if done well. The other commercial horn design I'm curious about, in addition to the Jubilee, is Danley SH-50.

I had a chance to hear them recently, thanks to a very generous member at the Klipsch forum (and survived a blizzard driving back!). This system is active crossover with EQ settings by the guy who designed the waveguide.

I was actively listening to see if there was any horn coloration (something I am pretty sensitive to) and I'm pleased to say I could not detect any whatsoever playing a wide variety of music, but focused more on jazz and classical.

I suppose the best thing I could say about them is that I forgot I was listening to speakers when I was playing my favorite jazz and classical selections. I was actively trying to listen for things I value and would focus on it but then later forget about it.

The dynamics are truly insane. And from that audition I'm convinced you need horn loaded bass to do it. No exaggeration or hyperbole when I saw it was the closest I have heard to my real life experiences with live classical (mostly NYPhil or BSO) or jazz.

A great Blue Note disc I enjoy-

The title track has some huge dynamics from the horns, drum kit, bass and piano. There is one section where the pianist goes up and down the keyboard then slams the piano and you can hear the decay and boxy resonation so clearly. I have never experienced this with my Quads or various Stax headphones.

Tonal response was completely even, essentially non colored from midbass up. As you can see in the picture below there is no room treatment or bass treatment so it wasn't easy to evaluate the bass. I think with an all out dallasjustice type of approach the bass performance could be real hifi.

Imaging (I made a thread about this a few months ago) was also surprisingly exceptional. This is one area I was expecting them to fall flat since most horns do, but YMMV as most of my experience is with the audiophool kind with multiple round beamy horns stacked on top of each other. On Oistrakh playing a Mozart violin concerto the various strings, and orchestra was so clear and well defined.

So tl;dr they went from speakers I'm considering, to moving up to the first position on the considering list.

I still want to look more into straight midbass horns, but from everything I heard yesterday my mind has sort of been swayed on folded horns.

If you get a chance to hear Bjorn's setup I am really interested to hear what you think.

 

[Sal1950]

I still want to look more into straight midbass horns, but from everything I heard yesterday my mind has sort of been swayed on folded horns.

You might investigate the Klipsch La Scala's bass horn design if size is a big issue. Cut off is higher but I ran mine full range and then supplemented them with a pair of HSU subs from 60hz down.
I think a actively crossover'd and eq'd La Scala could be very interesting. Maybe someone on the Klipsch forum is already playing with that?

 

[oivavoi]

Thank you so much for your listening report, hvbias! To say that I'm now even more intrigued by these large black beasts is an understatement.

 

[hvbias]

You might investigate the Klipsch La Scala's bass horn design if size is a big issue. Cut off is higher but I ran mine full range and then supplemented them with a pair of HSU subs from 60hz down.
I think a actively crossover'd and eq'd La Scala could be very interesting. Maybe someone on the Klipsch forum is already playing with that?

The size isn't an issue, no way behemoth speakers would be in the house outside of a dedicated room.

Still looking into subs. The guys on the Klipsch forum are big fans of folded bass horns. Nice thing about them is Bill Fitzmaurice sells plans and I have a close friend that is a carpenter and I could get them to look more like furniture than subs.

 

[oivavoi]

Btw, I will probably audition the Danley SH50 any day now. That's another highly regarded horn construction. I've asked Bjørn for an audition of his system, but he's a busy man. But hopefully I'll be able to hear it in the not too distant future.

 

[hvbias]

Btw, I will probably audition the Danley SH50 any day now. That's another highly regarded horn construction. I've asked Bjørn for an audition of his system, but he's a busy man. But hopefully I'll be able to hear it in the not too distant future.

They're good speakers and much more manageable size wise for most people. IMHO they're not as transparent as the Jubilee (some people think it's because of the messy looking impulse response from multiple drivers firing into the same flare, this is second hand info I've never seen its impulse), and I didn't think they were entirely devoid of horn coloration.

 

[RayDunzl]

Here's someones in-room measurement of an SH50.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-testing-measurement-thread.html#post23153642

 

[oivavoi]

Btw, to get it clear: the drivers on the jubilees were equalized, but there was no further room eq?

 

[hvbias]

Btw, to get it clear: the drivers on the jubilees were equalized, but there was no further room eq?

Correct, EQ for the for the active crossover, bass horn/K-402 waveguide. I don't know what the active EQ unit was, it's one of two or three the designer has all the settings for.

Honestly I would probably need to spend more time with them, but even at the very loud levels we were listening at (again trying to suss out horn sound), I didn't think a target room curve was needed. The speakers sounded harsh when the recording/mastering was harsh, neutral when recordings were neutral and mellow when recordings were mellow. This might have been because the K-402 is controlled directivity.

The bass could obviously use some assistance but that is a whole different complicated matter that should in an ideal world be dealt with from the ground up ala dj.

 

[Cosmik]

The dynamics are truly insane.

Can you name any of the (non-horn?) speakers that you are comparing against - that don't have such great dynamics? Maybe they have been tested for dynamic linearity like this one:

This graph shows the normalised output difference comparing a KEF Reference 1 at 70dB versus 90dB.

The performance in this regard would also be a function of the amp and, I suppose, an element of the speaker's phase and time alignment, in that transient edges being 'smeared' would pull the punches of percussive sounds.

 

[RayDunzl]

Can you name any of the (non-horn?) speakers that you are comparing against - that don't have such great dynamics? Maybe they have been tested for dynamic linearity like this one:

I did sweeps at the listening position with my MartinLogans.

I can't normalize but can move the 70dB sweep up by adding 20dB to it.

They would seem to measure just as well over the range of 70 to 90dB. Greatest deviation is about .5dB at 15kHz

red - 7odB black - 90dB at 10 feet 1/12th octave averaging

 

[hvbias]

Can you name any of the (non-horn?) speakers that you are comparing against - that don't have such great dynamics? Maybe they have been tested for dynamic linearity like this one:

This graph shows the normalised output difference comparing a KEF Reference 1 at 70dB versus 90dB.

The performance in this regard would also be a function of the amp and, I suppose, an element of the speaker's phase and time alignment, in that transient edges being 'smeared' would pull the punches of percussive sounds.

Just curious if you are considering dynamic linearity to be a key measurement in how dynamic a speaker sounds? I have pondered this, and almost started a thread asking if dynamics can be measured. I left it alone after the imaging thread went off the rails. It is a topic I would like to learn more about and IME from my searches something that doesn't have a whole lot of published material.

Possible controversial opinion warning- I'm not sure how a small pair of bookshelves would be considered top tier when it comes to dynamic performance. I'm skeptical it could capture the moments that fool you into thinking you're listening to live music like in an allegro or an energetic jazz performance. And just to add a bit more to that if we're talking about jazz, mastering engineers are for some godly unknown reason starting to add dynamic compression to remasters so most streaming services/later CDs will have these newer remasterings that should be avoided. Classical music fares much better, though the Decca remasters have some mild compression. Basically start with the best source material first to make assessments.

The speakers I am very familiar with either through ownership or friends owning them are listed below, I left off several that I can't think of. My definition of familiarity is knowing the frequency response of the speakers/room so if I am to play a CD I am familiar with I have a decent idea of how it will sound before it's played.

Quad ESL57 (rebuilt my Wayne Picquet)
Magnepan MMG
Magnepan 1.6
Kef LS50
Martin Logan Odyssey
Avant-Garde Duo
Quad 22L
Ascend Acoustics Sierra
Daedalus Ulysses

The panels perform the worst in dynamics. The Avant-Garde is the strongest, but it has dozens of short comings and still can't match the Jubilee I heard. The Daedalus Ulysses would probably be second but still exhibit dynamic compression.

I agree with your last paragraph, these are all things that should be present in any hifi system. I don't think sensitivity is purely an indicator of how dynamic something will sound as I've heard plenty of greater than 100 db/w sensitive speakers that fall flat. However in my experience (and of course only my opinion) there is a strong correlation between sensitivity and dynamics.

 

[RayDunzl]

The performance in this regard would also be a function of the amp and, I suppose, an element of the speaker's phase and time alignment, in that transient edges being 'smeared' would pull the punches of percussive sounds.

I don't see much Impulse difference, normalized.

40 to 90dB

Not normalized

Phase remained constant, too. I threw out the lowest (below 55dB) as the phase seems to be confused by ambient noise.

 

[Cosmik]

I don't see much Impulse difference, normalized.

40 to 90dB

View attachment 5550

Not normalized

View attachment 5548

Phase remained constant, too. I threw out the lowest (below 55dB) as the phase seems to be confused by ambient noise.

View attachment 5549

For sure, I didn't mean that volume would change the phase or timing, merely that subjectively, flat phase and accurate timing might sound more dynamic than if percussive edges were smeared through inaccuracies (that remain constant with volume). In other words, does a measurement of dynamic linearity tell the whole story with regards to the subjective impression of 'dynamics'?

 

[RayDunzl]

I'm wondering how to measurably quantify "dynamics" other than something like "goes louder before faults creep in"...

In which case it goes louder, but is that "better dynamics"?

Here's a discussion at the other other place:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1089749-define-speaker-dynamics-me.html

 

[oivavoi]

Here's my very simplistic understanding of what "dynamics" means in any amp/speaker combo: The ability to go very fast from quiet to loud, and from loud to quiet again. Is it really more complicated than that?

A further question is whether there are any apriori reasons to think that horns would do a better job here. My hunch would be that it's not so much about the sensitivity, but rather about the range of movement that the driver has to perform to generate a certain soundwave. Compression drivers simply have less movement than ordinary drivers. They have less work to do. It seems logical to me that this may translate to larger dynamics.

 

[RayDunzl]

Compression drivers simply have less movement than ordinary drivers.

My panels move less than that, unless I'm mistaken.