KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[Reed]

I’m a regular Darko reader/viewer/listener. I don’t rely on him for measurements. I do that here and on Erin’s channel - religiously. What Darko is really good at is hardware and software usability and product design. If that‘s a focus on the “lifestyle” aspects of products then I’m all for it.

In his latest podcast, he interviews Oclee-Brown on the LS60 and does press him on reliability issues with the LS50 Wireless. Points for that. In the interview, Oclee-Brown also says that the KEF dsp platform has lots of room for expansion and hints that some new things are on the way in the future. Hoping that’s room correction.

 

[Zvu]

....
In his latest podcast, he interviews Oclee-Brown ...

Where can i find that podcast please ?

 

[Reed]

‎Darko.Audio podcast on Apple Podcasts

‎Technology · 2024

podcasts.apple.com

Theres a lot of good stuff on Darko’s podcast. The ones with Lavorgna are actually funny. But there are a number of guests that are designers and engineers. Actual content.

 

[MattHooper]

A sincere person does not fool potential buyers about usb cables.

Why can’t some people understand the difference between “lying” and “mistaken?”

Given the vast numbers of audiophiles who truly believe all sorts of cables make a sonic difference, and given reviewers like Darko are generally in the subjectivist “if I hear it it’s real” camp, the odds are he probably thinks these things really matter.

This zeal to ascribe lying to people who believe different things is one of the scourges that has been amplified by social media

 

[Vacceo]

I understand the difference. You assume good intentions on Darko, I don't.

 

[Zvu]

I usualy don't care about anyones subjective impressions. There are few rare occasions though. Our rooms are so differenrt, some people EQ their loudspeakers, other don't. Saying that any reviewer is a liar might be truth or not. It seems to me like something one would say when driving a car to the driver of other car. Put a little glass and 50cm of space between two people and there is no filter in what one can/will say. Same with forums. If you are the guy who would go to Darko, or any other reviewer on the street or in elevator, and say to his face - You are a liar and what you're saying is shit, then i think you have moral obligation to do so on forum. If you're not that guy, it would be polite to refrain from language like that.

I quite enjoy Darko's videos and podcasts for years now. They are informative for what i'm looking for - functionality and usability of devices, which apps work or don't work, is it gapless or not etc. I quite enjoy Napilopez's, Erin's and Amir's measurements of loudspeaker and they are informative for what i'm looking for - are the devices engineered properly. I even do some measuring myself.

Sometimes there are inconsistencies looking subjective vs objective/measured but should i presume some hidden intentions ? That's crazy. If someone says something i see as BS, i take note of it. I don't have the need to go to a crusade to persuade someone else it is BS because it is counterproductive most of the times and looks/sounds rude without exception.

 

[Purité Audio]

Why can’t some people understand the difference between “lying” and “mistaken?”

Given the vast numbers of audiophiles who truly believe all sorts of cables make a sonic difference, and given reviewers like Darko are generally in the subjectivist “if I hear it it’s real” camp, the odds are he probably thinks these things really matter.

This zeal to ascribe lying to people who believe different things is one of the scourges that has been amplified by social media

They could just all be incompetent they could of course compare cables unsighted yet they never do, what does that tell you liars or mistaken?
Keith

 

[Frgirard]

Why can’t some people understand the difference between “lying” and “mistaken?”

Given the vast numbers of audiophiles who truly believe all sorts of cables make a sonic difference, and given reviewers like Darko are generally in the subjectivist “if I hear it it’s real” camp, the odds are he probably thinks these things really matter.

This zeal to ascribe lying to people who believe different things is one of the scourges that has been amplified by social media

We are able to believe false things to be true by dint of repetition. Things are more complex than liar or incompetent

 

[ENG]

I think we are going offline here. I am really interested in KEF LS60!
That said I am a lifelong auditor, in cases like this: Follow the money.

 

[TSB]

Can we put the Bluetooth critisim to bed?

The argument about this speaker using Bluetooth 4.2 instead of 5.2 being a failing has been addressed already. I've either read from this thread or another site's forum that there isn't an improvement in audio quality or bandwidth from any Bluetooth version beyond 4.2 to present.

If the latest Bluetooth versions are offering advantages that don't pertain to audio quality, then I have no problem with 4.2.

But a more fundamental factor is that Bluetooth isn't HiFi format anyway. If there are superior wireless options via WiFi then use them.

Besides the fact that Bluetooth drains the controller device, it also plays any message or device notification and interrupts playback.

Not to mention that because Bluetooth playback comes from the controller device rather than a server, playback demands the controller device is sufficiently close to the speakers to maintain connection.

It's nice to include Bluetooth for instances where there are no alternative wireless connection (e.g. playing an audio book via audible which doesn't support chromecast) it's an additional convenience option at best and not a connection that can capitalises on the speaker's capability, regardless of which version and protocol used.

I write software for audio streaming & we tell customers not to waste their development budget on bt5.

For this kind of product there is no advantage (except 'we has newest') and it means integrating & testing newer more expensive chips, adding significant development cost. Since covid, availability is also a big questionmark.

Ironically the person who is asking for bt5 (why?) is also complaining about price

 

[Vacceo]

Erin has tested a very nice amount of Kef speakers so far. Kef is also very transparent about the performance of their products, so with a bit time and patience, Erin may help us dispel, confirm or deny a lot of perceptions.

What I can tell as a final consumer is that'd have no issue (well, the cost...) finding them a place at home. In fact, the LS60 could easily replace an old two channel Onkio amp from the Pleistocene I have over there...

 

[TurtlePaul]

Anyone else frustrated that this clearly has a built in DSP, but the 'pro-mode' of the EQ doesn't appear to allow you to tune parametric filters?

 

[samysound]

How do the ls60 compare to the genelec 8351b?

 

[MattHooper]

I understand the difference. You assume good intentions on Darko, I don't.

Ok, but cynicism is easy. What evidence would you have that Darko doesn't actually believe USB cables can make a sonic difference?

They could just all be incompetent they could of course compare cables unsighted yet they never do, what does that tell you liars or mistaken?
Keith

It tells me Darko is probably mistaken.

People praying in congregations all around the world know their religion is doubted by many, yet they continue to use an obviously biased "count the hits, ignore the misses" in concluding prayers are often answered. They aren't even attempting any sort of controls for that bias. Why? They are using a different epistemic paradigm, which places an emphasis on the reliability of their subjective inferences and experience. The fact millions and millions of people aren't using scientific controls doesn't entail they are lying, right? That's what it looks like when you are operating outside the scientific method.

And most people, most of the time, are operating outside of the scientific method and therefore falling to all the bias effects of being human. That includes as we know a very large proportion of the audiophile community. And most reviewers are audiophiles. Most are of the "subjective," "I Trust Our Hearing" variety. If you are using the wrong methodology you will continue to come to the wrong conclusions over and over. The number of times you use this methodology, and the number of times you are wrong, does not imply you are "lying." Just using a bad method.

I've seen lots of Darko's videos. Not for him - I find him sort of off-putting - but to check out the gear he's reviewing and for entertainment. I do not see any particular evidence that he isn't sincere in thinking cables sound different, including USB cables.

 

[Vacceo]

He goes on a massive excursus about specialists and so on while stating that he thought it was only ones and zeros.

That changed because anything sounds better after being paid.

It is curious that no specialist is quoted, because in here, in his very home, we have a very public one. Amir packs a huge track record and popularity that not just says, but empirically demonstrates that USB bling does not change sound.

It is a fact, and no amount of self-sugestion will change it. That means that those specialists are pure rethoric and used car salesman methods.

Again, Amir's work is well-known.

 

[Vacceo]

Anyone else frustrated that this clearly has a built in DSP, but the 'pro-mode' of the EQ doesn't appear to allow you to tune parametric filters?

Truth be told, that is one of the reasons I cannot comprehend about these speakers (or the LS50 wireless). It would be amazing that you could toy with those values or if you're lazy like me, get a license for room calibration, plug a mic to a PC and let Dirac/arc/Audyssey/Lyngdorf do the heavy lifting for you.

 

[MattHooper]

He goes on a massive excursus about specialists and so on while stating that he thought it was only ones and zeros.

That changed because anything sounds better after being paid.

It is curious that no specialist is quoted, because in here, in his very home, we have a very public one. Amir packs a huge track record and popularity that not just says, but empirically demonstrates that USB bling does not change sound.

It is a fact, and no amount of self-sugestion will change it. That means that those specialists are pure rethoric and used car salesman methods.

Again, Amir's work is well-known.

I don't think you are really, seriously grappling with the nature of human psychology.

People don't just "change their minds" because you can show all sorts of evidence the are wrong. If the pandemic (and election stolen rhetoric etc) hasn't taught us that, what can? (And studies in psychology show how averse people can be to evidence against their position).

It's just a mistake to think that if someone with a different view clings on to that view, even though there is good evidence available against it, that therefore they are dishonest in their stated beliefs.

I've had debates with "subjectivists" in which I've provided all the arguments and evidence under the sun showing why their position is unsound. Did that change their mind and approach? Usually: not at all. And not surprising in the least. It's how we are built. It's not impossible to turn the ship around, but it's often not easy.

 

[Vacceo]

I don't think you are really, seriously grappling with the nature of human psychology.

People don't just "change their minds" because you can show all sorts of evidence the are wrong. If the pandemic (and election stolen rhetoric etc) hasn't taught us that, what can?

It's just a mistake to think that if someone with a different view clings on to that view, even though there is good evidence available against it, that therefore they are dishonest in their stated beliefs.

I've had debates with "subjectivists" in which I've provided all the arguments and evidence under the sun showing why their position is unsound. Did that change their mind and approach? Usually: not at all. And not surprising in the least. It's how we are built. It's not impossible to turn the ship around, but it's often not easy.

But somehow those honest beliefs are, by pure luck, economically profitable for him, just like stolen election rethoric is beneficial for those who support it. The sincerity here is about the benefits of a belief, not the belief itself.

 

[MattHooper]

But somehow those honest beliefs are, by pure luck, economically profitable for him, just like stolen election rethoric is beneficial for those who support it. The sincerity here is about the benefits of a belief, not the belief itself.

Which, again, is entirely consistent with his believing cables make sonic differences.

Cynicism does not a case make.

(Info on Darko's economics: https://darko.audio/funding/
None of which makes the case that he doesn't actually believe, like most "subjectivist" audiophiles, that cables make a difference)

 

[tifune]

Why has Darko become the subject of this thread? Take it elsewhere, please.