KEF LS60 Wireless Just Announced

[TK33]

when I was demoing them in the London store a few months ago the guy told me KEF is going to increase the price soon. So I think it was a worldwide planned price increase

I got an email from KEF on April 28 saying old prices would be honored through May 5, 2025 so the increases may have happened already.

 

[AOR]

I got an email from KEF on April 28 saying old prices would be honored through May 5, 2025 so the increases may have happened already.

The price increases that happened on May 5th are only in the US market. A significant portion of KEF models are produced in China. Therefore the price increase in that territory is as a necessary response to trade tariffs between the two countries.
Across the board (in the US), the prices have increased by, on average, around 10%. Some models more, some have not increased.
As to what will happen going forward, both in the US region, and globally, I couldn't say. As an engineer, I have little visibility of those decisions and certainly no control...

 

[drdansil]

Your 5s

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: GoldenEar Technology Triton Five Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Your new Ref

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: GoldenEar Technology Triton Reference Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

I'm no expert in interpreting those graphs. To me the graphs of the Triton 5's and the Reference look pretty close. They don't sound the same. I paid exactly the same for both speakers, the 5's were new and the Refererence were used. I don't think I'm biased based on what I paid. The Reference speakers are heads and tails better than the 5's. Measurements aren't everything.

I'm a retired cardiologist, I made some of my living listening to sounds that were barely audible. That doesn't make me an audio expert. But I know what I like and I know that some speakers sound better than others even if they don't have a perfectly flat frequency response. I believe that there are measurements that have yet to be identified that are related to sound quality. The ear and the brain have evolved over millions of years. The smartest computer can barely drive a car while a human can do it while texting on their phone, eating a sandwich and joking with their passenger. Humans can do things that computers and machines can't. Humans can appreciate sound better than a microphone and an oscilloscope. A handfull of measurements are not the whole story. As an analogy, a photo of the Mona Lisa is a pretty accurate representation of the original painting. A print is neary worthless while the original is priceless. Music is art. It's not easy to measure the quality of sound. I don't dispute that audible distortion is bad or that booming bass or shrill treble sounds bad. There are factors that we don't know how to measure.

Another thing I'd like to opine on is amplifiers. I've read the opinions that a good measuring amp sounds better than one that may measure less accurately. I think there are exceptions. I have the Topping PA5 II plus, a Wiim amp, a Denon AVR x 4400 and a Denon PMA 2500. To my ear the PMA 2500 sounds better than the AVRx4400 which sounds better than any of the aforementioned class D amps. I put this out there in case there is someone reading these threads is considering upgrading their amp. There are other music qualities of an amp that is not being measured here. And just because I don't know what that parameter is, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You don't know what you don't know. Put those amps side by side and switch back and forth. I have. There is a difference and it's not just the Sinad number.

I know this isn't a popular opinion here. I don't plan on debating the topic endlessly. I'm entitled to my opinion and those of you who disagree are entitle to yours.

 

[Laserjock]

@drdansil very true. There a more too many variables and I know all about testing, I work in a world of sub micron and femtosecond measurements.

I was merely giving you some data that I had noticed. I’m a Revel fan/owner but have always been curious about the GoldenEar speakers.

Chris

 

[drdansil]

@drdansil very true. There a more too many variables and I know all about testing, I work in a world of sub micron and femtosecond measurements.

I was merely giving you some data that I had noticed. I’m a Revel fan/owner but have always been curious about the GoldenEar speakers.

Chris

I hope I didn't come across too defensively. There are strong opinions here and I guess I was preparing for the worst. LOL I was very interested in the Revel's but I found it difficult to find a dealer where I could listen. The build of the Goldenear reference seeemed similar to the KEF LS 60's with built in powered subwoofers. I think they sound marvelous. I haven't listened to all that many comparables. I have KEF 300's and 350's. They are nice speakers too, but i much prefer the Goldenear reference. I was lucky to get them for $2K. I think the store didn't know the going price or just wanted to get rid of them. There was a small chip on one corner.

 

[kemmler3D]

But I know what I like and I know that some speakers sound better than others even if they don't have a perfectly flat frequency response.

Sure, there is no law that says you have to prefer a certain frequency response, just a certain amount research that says most people do.

I believe that there are measurements that have yet to be identified that are related to sound quality.

Everything you hear in a recording is captured using the same tools - typically less sensitive ones - than are used to evaluate performance of audio gear. If it can't be measured it can't be put into a recording. So up to the point of the signal hitting the speaker, we've got it all.

When it comes to speakers, we're scanning the output in 3 dimensions with thousands of points. Seems pretty thorough to me.

This is not to say that all of the measurements commonly published are easy to relate to your personal subjective experience, but that doesn't mean they don't.

"There are factors we don't know how to measure" or, perhaps, respectfully, your expertise in audio is not a match for that job. The mastering engineer creating the art you're appreciating isn't doing it blindfolded or by reading tea leaves. They use ears but also measurements to verify what they're hearing. I don't think studio folk typically consider their work as being beyond the reach of science.

The ear and the brain have evolved over millions of years. The smartest computer can barely drive a car while a human can do it while texting on their phone, eating a sandwich and joking with their passenger.

Yes, well, we also kill 40,000 people this way every year just in the US, so...

 

[drdansil]

If it can't be measured it can't be put into a recording.

I'm not sure that is true. I think one thing that great artists do is put emotion into the music. It's one of the things that differentiates great musicians and singers from average ones. Since the emotion is in the recording it must be measurable according to you. Exactly how do you measure it?

There is beauty in music. I don't think it's such a simple task to formulate or measure.

I think accuracy is an important factor in speakers and amplifiers but that doesn't exclude other factors that are not so easily measured.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What I perceive as beauty you may perceive as defective. Art is very subjective. It's not black and white nor right or wrong.

The most accurate isn't necessarily the best. No one would make the claim that Picasso tried to depict the world accurately. Just because his depictions were not accurate representations of his subjects doesn't diminish the quality of his work.

 

[AudioJester]

Use an echocardiogram. Much better measuring tool than your ears...

 

[kemmler3D]

If it can't be measured it can't be put into a recording.

I'm not sure that is true. I think one thing that great artists do is put emotion into the music. It's one of the things that differentiates great musicians and singers from average ones. Since the emotion is in the recording it must be measurable according to you. Exactly how do you measure it?

There is beauty in music. I don't think it's such a simple task to formulate or measure.

I think accuracy is an important factor in speakers and amplifiers but that doesn't exclude other factors that are not so easily measured.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What I perceive as beauty you may perceive as defective. Art is very subjective. It's not black and white nor right or wrong.

The most accurate isn't necessarily the best. No one would make the claim that Picasso tried to depict the world accurately. Just because his depictions were not accurate representations of his subjects doesn't diminish the quality of his work.

Okay, fine, but uh... What does that have to do with audio or trying to quantitatively evaluate HiFi gear? This is a site pretty much focused on that topic.

Discussion of emotion in music is certainly valid, but this is audio (not music) science (not art) review. As you are probably aware, music is pretty low resolution and low bandwidth compared to plenty of other things we can measure today.

You said some measurements are beyond current science and I don't buy that.

Certainly no suite of audio measurements claims to tell you how you're going to feel when you listen to Stevie Wonder. But emotion in music belongs in a discussion of audio measurements the same way discussion of literary themes in cinema belongs in a discussion of color fidelity in movie projectors.

I think most everyone here gets your point, but the goal and ethos of measuring gear is for the gear to get out of the way and deliver the emotional experience in the music with as little adulteration as possible. Fidelity in Hi-fi taken literally, in other words.

It's valid to want something different in your gear, but it's not valid to imply your wanting that exposes a gap in our ability to quantify the performance of gear.

 

[TurtlePaul]

,,, great artists do is put emotion into the music.

There is beauty in music. I don't think it's such a simple task to formulate or measure.

Beauty and emotion are put into the sound. And you can formulate and measure the sound. Emotion/Beauty/Style/Creativity/Technique --> Sound --> Recording. Stereo recordings don't capture everything about the sound field in a recording studio but it is absolutely not because of some unmeasurable emotion and beauty BS.

There are a lot of things that can't be captured in the sound. You don't know if the recording engineer behind the soundproof glass was paying attention or having a cigarette when the take was being recorded. But you can absolutely capture the sound of the artist being recorded, including all of the emotion and beauty.

 

[Axo1989]

I'm no expert in interpreting those graphs. To me the graphs of the Triton 5's and the Reference look pretty close. They don't sound the same. I paid exactly the same for both speakers, the 5's were new and the Refererence were used. I don't think I'm biased based on what I paid. The Reference speakers are heads and tails better than the 5's. Measurements aren't everything.

I'm a retired cardiologist, I made some of my living listening to sounds that were barely audible. That doesn't make me an audio expert. But I know what I like and I know that some speakers sound better than others even if they don't have a perfectly flat frequency response. I believe that there are measurements that have yet to be identified that are related to sound quality. The ear and the brain have evolved over millions of years. The smartest computer can barely drive a car while a human can do it while texting on their phone, eating a sandwich and joking with their passenger. Humans can do things that computers and machines can't. Humans can appreciate sound better than a microphone and an oscilloscope. A handfull of measurements are not the whole story. As an analogy, a photo of the Mona Lisa is a pretty accurate representation of the original painting. A print is neary worthless while the original is priceless. Music is art. It's not easy to measure the quality of sound. I don't dispute that audible distortion is bad or that booming bass or shrill treble sounds bad. There are factors that we don't know how to measure.

Looking at those two sets of graphs, just the first FR indicates the Reference model is generally flatter, has quite decent bass extension down to 30 Hz and more orderly dispersion off-axis. The Triton has bass falling off below 100 Hz, less even FR higher up and less even dispersion. I’d expect a fairly dramatic difference in sonics.

Another thing I'd like to opine on is amplifiers. I've read the opinions that a good measuring amp sounds better than one that may measure less accurately. I think there are exceptions. I have the Topping PA5 II plus, a Wiim amp, a Denon AVR x 4400 and a Denon PMA 2500. To my ear the PMA 2500 sounds better than the AVRx4400 which sounds better than any of the aforementioned class D amps. I put this out there in case there is someone reading these threads is considering upgrading their amp. There are other music qualities of an amp that is not being measured here. And just because I don't know what that parameter is, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You don't know what you don't know. Put those amps side by side and switch back and forth. I have. There is a difference and it's not just the Sinad number.

I know this isn't a popular opinion here. I don't plan on debating the topic endlessly. I'm entitled to my opinion and those of you who disagree are entitle to yours.

Otoh I’ve had two amps with quite different sonic presentation that I couldn’t see on the available review charts, but didn’t get to the bottom of if/how/why. I assume it was’t unmeasurable magic though, and it’s a longer story really which doesn’t belong in this thread (but I’m reasonably confident the delta wasn’t imaginary).

 

[EJ3]

Sure, there is no law that says you have to prefer a certain frequency response, just a certain amount research that says most people do.

With you here.
And I like knowing that my gear and speakers can be at a measured "zero" starting point, then I can adjust from there (sort of like doing a recipe the way it is written the first time and after trying it, adjusting it to your preferences).
At that point I can measure again & then, knowing what the end measurements are, after I have adjusted from flat, I can duplicate that measurement from the on (or until I want to change things up). But if something messes up or I have to insert a new piece of gear, I can take it (the system) back to zero & then easily adjust it to my preferences.
Not having a "Zero": point to start from, makes it more difficult.
So I definitely want that "zero" point to start off with.

 

[kemmler3D]

With you here.
And I like knowing that my gear and speakers can be at a measured "zero" starting point, then I can adjust from there (sort of like doing a recipe the way it is written the first time and after trying it, adjusting it to your preferences).
At that point I can measure again & then, knowing what the end measurements are, after I have adjusted from flat, I can duplicate that measurement from the on (or until I want to change things up). But if something messes up or I have to insert a new piece of gear, I can take it the system back to zero & then easily adjust it to my preferences.
Not having a "Zero": point to start from, makes it more difficult.
So I definitely want that "zero" point to start off with.

Bingo... And more on topic with this thread, the LS60 is a good blank canvas for dialing in your preferred tonality with EQ.

 

[drdansil]

I would like to close with the following. I started my journey looking for much of my gear based on the numbers published on this site. The information here has been invaluable. I would like to personally thank Amir and the countless other contributors to this site. Your dedication and hard work doing all this analysis is simply amazing, beyond words.

Thanks also for all the interesting comments and debate.

Time for some zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz's

 

[Puddingbuks]

This morning I tidied up the cables and enjoyed a long session with my LS60s. Love it .

 

[traind]

If it can't be measured it can't be put into a recording.

I'm not sure that is true. I think one thing that great artists do is put emotion into the music. It's one of the things that differentiates great musicians and singers from average ones. Since the emotion is in the recording it must be measurable according to you. Exactly how do you measure it?

There is beauty in music. I don't think it's such a simple task to formulate or measure.

I think accuracy is an important factor in speakers and amplifiers but that doesn't exclude other factors that are not so easily measured.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What I perceive as beauty you may perceive as defective. Art is very subjective. It's not black and white nor right or wrong.

The most accurate isn't necessarily the best. No one would make the claim that Picasso tried to depict the world accurately. Just because his depictions were not accurate representations of his subjects doesn't diminish the quality of his work.

I wonder if the issue is 1) we can't measure everything in sound yet or 2) interpreting the measurements we have 100% accurately is nigh on impossible. Perhaps all the tiny variations in something like a FR curve combine in a way where only general trends can be accurately predicted, not the many nuances in sound the speakers actually produce with the music we prefer.

What do others think about this?

 

[ahofer]

I wonder if the issue is 1) we can't measure everything in sound yet or 2) interpreting the measurements we have 100% accurately is nigh on impossible. Perhaps all the tiny variations in something like a FR curve combine in a way where only general trends can be accurately predicted, not the many nuances in sound the speakers actually produce with the music we prefer.

What do others think about this?

I think we can measure any sound the ear can pick up and a lot more, that sound waves are fully summarized in amplitude, frequency (and timing, but that’s basically frequency). So #1 is basically off the table. Furthermore, we have a pretty robust suite of measurements going way beyond a FR curve, as well as a ton of evidence that perceived differences tend to go away by the simple application of a blindfold. Finally, I think if this conversation keeps going this way, it belongs in the Measurements thread.(@RickS) where you can see some of the assertions here relitigated ad nauseam.

 

[traind]

I think we can measure any sound the ear can pick up and a lot more, that sound waves are fully summarized in amplitude, frequency (and timing, but that’s basically frequency). So #1 is basically off the table. Furthermore, we have a pretty robust suite of measurements going way beyond a FR curve, as well as a ton of evidence that perceived differences tend to go away by the simple application of a blindfold. Finally, I think if this conversation keeps going this way, it belongs in the Measurements thread.(@RickS) where you can see some of the assertions here relitigated ad nauseam.

And in your opinion, how accurately can an informed person predict sound based on measurements alone?

 

[ahofer]

And in your opinion, how accurately can an informed person predict sound based on measurements alone?

With electronics this is trivial. With speakers, My method is triage:

1) Measurements, including spinorama exist? If yes,
2)do they reveal major flaws (distortion, big dispersion discontinuities, poor compression results, etc.?) if no,
3) Are they wider horizontal dispersion (my preference)? If yes,
4) ->audition and/ or purchase with return option.

The capability to produce fidelity and smooth in-room results is table stakes. So you see, it isn’t so much ‘predicting sound’ as avoiding obvious inaccuracies. I can add in inaccuracies to taste later.

 

[ppierre]

And in your opinion, how accurately can an informed person predict sound based on measurements alone?

And in your opinion, how accurately can an informed person make sense of an image based on several color measurements alone?