John Atkinson's of Stereophile Talks About Measurements

[Blumlein 88]

I dunno; ‘different’ is subjective. That is...my different is different than someone else’s difference. I enjoy how it sounds.

So why did you choose to buy this BP DAC instead of something else. Like one for $500 with better (higher fidelity) performance even if you didn't hear a difference either way?

 

[Deleted member 13130]

Common misunderstanding. There is a whole field called psychoacoustics where thresholds of various distortions is established through listening tests. Using measurements we can compare that outcome to those tests and determine audibility. I do this all the time in my measurements and reviews.

On the other hand, we know people don't perform proper listening tests of hifi gear and routinely fool themselves thinking they are "hearing" this and that when in reality their brain is manufacturing that. That said, it is true that audiophiles are terrible at hearing non-linear distortions. To that end, they best trust the measurements given their faulty perception.

Trust measurements stemming from non-linear distortions that can’t be aptly discerned through human hearing? Measurements run outta science against what can be heard or not heard from individuals earholes.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

So why did you choose to buy this BP DAC instead of something else. Like one for $500 with better (higher fidelity) performance even if you didn't hear a difference either way?

I haven’t heard all DACS. I’m only speaking to the one (BP DAC) that I have on hand & that I enjoy for immeasurable reasons; not comparatively against ‘other’ DACS based solely on measurements or ‘better’ performance. Better’s subjective to the end user.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I haven’t heard all DACS. I’m only speaking to the one (BP DAC) that I have on hand & that I enjoy for immeasurable reasons; not comparatively against ‘other’ DACS based solely on measurements or ‘better’ pricing.

So you enjoy the one DAC for immeasurable reasons. Which you have for reasons you aren't sharing with us. Sounds very mystical. Not sure how anyone could expect your statement about your satisfaction with your DAC would have any meaning to anyone else at all. Had you posted a blank empty post it would have the same value and usefulness to anyone else.

And you won't entertain any other opinion, idea or information from anyone else going by your posts so far. So in some mysterious way your post was very satisfying to you, and that is about the be all and end all of it. The rest of us will have to struggle on through in our own worlds that aren't yours.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

So you enjoy the one DAC for immeasurable reasons. Which you have for reasons you aren't sharing with us. Sounds very mystical. Not sure how anyone could expect your statement about your satisfaction with your DAC would have any meaning to anyone else at all. Had you posted a blank empty post it would have the same value and usefulness to anyone else.

And you won't entertain any other opinion, idea or information from anyone else going by your posts so far. So in some mysterious way your post was very satisfying to you, and that is about the be all and end all of it. The rest of us will have to struggle on through in our own worlds that aren't yours.

Arguably...will anyone accept or entertain my idea or information? Listen...the joy of music (listening) is not a tangible experience for me beyond the gear itself. The best I can do is offer descriptions like ‘it sounds wonderful’ regardless of how the component measures even if it’s deemed anecdotal by others against the backdrop of measurements. In this case I’m speaking about the JA measurements on the Border Patrol DAC...nothing more (my original feedback post). I don’t refute ‘em...I just think there’s other intangibles up for consideration by music lovers that simply cannot be discerned solely from measurements. This is to encourage the use of your own ears and not be swayed solely by data measurements. To that end if you want to rely solely on measurements then that’s ok....permission’s not warranted by me...if it’s ok for you...then ok....not to be imposed on anyone who doesn’t...resulting in influence on gear purchase/selection as a result without having heard the gear in their own listening environment.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Arguably...will anyone accept or entertain my idea or information? Listen...the joy of music (listening) is not a tangible experience for me beyond the gear itself. The best I can do is offer descriptions like ‘it sounds wonderful’ regardless of how the component measures even if it’s deemed anecdotal by others against the backdrop of measurements. In this case I’m speaking about the JA measurements on the Border Patrol DAC...nothing more (my original feedback post). I don’t refute ‘em...I just think there’s other intangibles up for consideration by music lovers that simply cannot be discerned solely from measurements. This is to encourage the use of your own ears and not be swayed solely by data measurements. To that end if you want to rely solely on measurements then that’s ok....permission’s not warranted by me...if it’s ok for you...then ok....not to be imposed on anyone who doesn’t...resulting in influence on gear purchase/selection as a result without having heard the gear in their own listening environment.

For all we know, if you had one of the superb measuring DACs you'd enjoy it just as much, twice as much or not at all. So your statement which you are being careful to isolate from anything impinging upon your judgment of sound quality simply isn't carrying any meaning to anyone else.

Now however you wish to say you just think there are intangibles up for consideration by music lovers that cannot be discerned soley from measurements. I'd say you are mistaken about that. You'd refuse to test the idea. Again, your thoughts are valueless to anyone else. Your responses lack genuine good faith as well. So I'll let it be, it is a waste of forum resources of no use to anyone.

 

[HammerSandwich]

I dunno; ‘different’ is subjective. That is...my different is different than someone else’s difference.

The question was "Do you think it sounds different than other DACs?" Yes, my emphasis. Nobody else's "different" matters here.

 

[cjm2077]

Arguably...will anyone accept or entertain my idea or information? Listen...the joy of music (listening) is not a tangible experience for me beyond the gear itself. The best I can do is offer descriptions like ‘it sounds wonderful’ regardless of how the component measures even if it’s deemed anecdotal by others against the backdrop of measurements. In this case I’m speaking about the JA measurements on the Border Patrol DAC...nothing more (my original feedback post). I don’t refute ‘em...I just think there’s other intangibles up for consideration by music lovers that simply cannot be discerned solely from measurements. This is to encourage the use of your own ears and not be swayed solely by data measurements. To that end if you want to rely solely on measurements then that’s ok....permission’s not warranted by me...if it’s ok for you...then ok....not to be imposed on anyone who doesn’t...resulting in influence on gear purchase/selection as a result without having heard the gear in their own listening environment.

If something exists, it can be measured. If you think the measurements done here and by JA are not accurate enough to reflect differences between products, then you seem to be going against the results of psychoacoustic studies. Modern equipment can measure the parameters used here and by JA to well beyond what humans can perceive. If you think this site and JA are not measuring the right parameters, then you need to explain what it is they are missing and why it would matter. Unmeasurable magic is not a valid difference between products.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

The question was "Do you think it sounds different than other DACs?" Yes, my emphasis. Nobody else's "different" matters here.

Your attempt to draw a circle around what I think around how DACs do or do not sound isn’t relevant to my original post. That’s another difference that’ll likely open up another vast cyclical conversation. There are arguments that DACs in & of themselves don’t sound different to those that indicate sound differences. So I dare not bother to answer one way or the other. Doesn’t matter what I hear or what can be measured central to my original mention. I don’t get the impression that you’re interested in my answers or opinion anyway; but rather making a hard line point of disagreeing with my well stated & initial position on the BP DAC being favorable to me on its own footing (not in comparison to all things DAC)....despite the well documented JA measurements...simply noting that you should trust your own ears above measurements (well documented or not); particularly around equipment purchase for use in your own home environment.

 

[nugget]

...simply noting that you should trust your own ears above measurements (well documented or not); particularly around equipment purchase for use in your own home environment.

My understanding and awareness of common and widespread cognitive biases leads me to believe that this is profoundly misguided advice. I do not trust my own ears because I am not immune to these biases. None of us are. The rigor and deliberation of the scientific method arose to combat these confounding factors and remain the best defense we have against making poor choices.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

My understanding and awareness of common and widespread cognitive biases leads me to believe that this is profoundly misguided advice. I do not trust my own ears because I am not immune to these biases. None of us are. The rigor and deliberation of the scientific method arose to combat these confounding factors and remain the best defense we have against making poor choices.

I only have my ears to trust as my ears are the only pair of ears that I have to hear with. Whose ears are we to borrow to avoid making ‘poor’ choices?

 

[Blumlein 88]

 

[Deleted member 13130]

If something exists, it can be measured. If you think the measurements done here and by JA are not accurate enough to reflect differences between products, then you seem to be going against the results of psychoacoustic studies. Modern equipment can measure the parameters used here and by JA to well beyond what humans can perceive. If you think this site and JA are not measuring the right parameters, then you need to explain what it is they are missing and why it would matter. Unmeasurable magic is not a valid difference between products.

I didn’t state or assert anything you’ve stated. Your interpretation of my statements are inaccurate. I simply stated not all measurements can define the users collective listening experience. How one receives that message is the only variable here...given the number of responses that I’ve replied to with that fundamentally consistent message. Again...I’m not here to sway anyone; my intent was to state that despite JA measurements the BP DAC sounds ‘wonderful’ to my ears albeit anecdotal to those who believe measurements above their own ears (which is ok if that’s their truth) or listening experience (or even lack thereof).

 

[nugget]

I only have my ears to trust as my ears are the only pair of ears that I have to hear with. Whose ears are we to borrow to avoid making ‘poor’ choices?

This is a nice attempt to be clever, but I'm not sure it's productive. Of course the problem is not our ears but our brains and employing a proper comparison methodology is how we can best avoid the pitfalls of cognitive biases. I assert that you can't claim that the BP DAC sounds "wonderful" or even "distinctive" until you've validated that perception with effective, level-matched, blind A/B testing. That's the best method we know to eliminate the possibility of bias and expectation fooling our perceptions and leading us to believe a difference exists when in reality no such difference is audible.

Absent effective testing, any comparative statements are untethered and suspect.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

This is a nice attempt to be clever, but I'm not sure it's productive. Of course the problem is not our ears but our brains and employing a proper comparison methodology is how we can best avoid the pitfalls of cognitive biases.

I’m certain you’re right in your own regard & others. Just know...not in my regard with respect to my message. We can agree to disagree on this topic.

 

[nugget]

I’m certain you’re right in your own regard & others. Just know...not in my regard with respect to my message. We can agree to disagree on this topic.

You probably just can't detect the unmeasurable brilliance of my posts. Rest assured it's present for those whose systems are revealing enough to extract the detail.

 

[March Audio]

.
.simply noting that you should trust your own ears above measurements (well documented or not); particularly around equipment purchase for use in your own home environment.

You are correct in that you should trust your ears. What you shouldn't do is trust your judgement as this isn't just based upon what you ears hear. Measurements aren't variable in this way and far more trustworthy.

 

[Deleted member 13130]

You probably just can't detect the unmeasurable brilliance of my posts. Rest assured it's present for those whose systems are revealing enough to extract the detail.

To each his own. Gary Dews, the designer of the BP DAC, makes a great point...worthy to ponder (in a rhetorical fashion as only you can decide). I subscribe to it but am not requiring that anyone here follow suit. My only mention is to not rely soley on measurements with regards to the purchase of audio gear. Have a listen in your home (if possible) and then decide.

Ok...onto Gary Dews mention:

I am reminded of a quote by Daniel R. von Recklinghausen, Chief Engineer, H.H. Scott: "If it measures good and sounds bad—it's bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing."

 

[March Audio]

:

I am reminded of a quote by Daniel R. von Recklinghausen, Chief Engineer, H.H. Scott: "If it measures good and sounds bad—it's bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing."

Fundamentally flawed thought process there. The reason it may sound "good" or "bad" to you may have nothing to do with the actual sound quality.

 

[mansr]

I am reminded of a quote by Daniel R. von Recklinghausen, Chief Engineer, H.H. Scott: "If it measures good and sounds bad—it's bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing."

I'd put it a bit differently. If it measures good and sounds bad, you've measured the wrong thing. If it measures bad and sounds good, you like distortion.