Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[antcollinet]

My impression is that it is the reviewers who make these statements, not the manufacturer advertising puff.

Then you need to read @kemmler3D 's post just after mine

 

[Deleted member 51584]

Shunyata is pretty careful not to make concrete claims, but they goofed up in the paragraph about "CopperConn:"



This is definitely BS.

Or possibly they found the worst bronze connector and compared it to their copper one, and got a 0.1dB difference, which is technically considered audible. At most. Highly doubtful though. And not what most people consider "clearly audible".

Also, they IMPLY (but don't actually say) their power cables reduce audible noise by 12dB. They don't, obviously. In court they could correctly claim that they didn't specify at what frequency... it's probably -12dB at 150khz or something... so I would call that a lie in all but the most legalistic sense.

Here's another one. PSAudio is likewise careful not to claim much about the cables' actual performance, but here they couldn't help themselves:



Yeah effing right. PROVE IT. They can't, and they won't, because it doesn't.

Also, the fact that these cable manufacturers HEAVILY IMPLY that the cables improve the sound, but RARELY ACTUALLY SAY IT proves the point pretty well. They don't want to get sued, their marketers don't want to gain a reputation as outright criminals (scumbags, maybe) so they toe the line but don't cross it.

If the cables actually did what they (don't) say they do, they would just say it. The fact that they very carefully avoid ACTUALLY saying what they say the cables do, proves that they know exactly how dishonest they are.

Example:



They say "experience", not "sound". Odd, I thought these were audio cables? Are they piping some other kind of sensory information that I can experience?

High-end audiophile cable manufacturers that are stupid or drink their own kool-aid, lie outright. The rest lie in ways that are extremely dishonest, but technically legally permissible. They all lie.

Here's a pretty honest one, but it's still exploiting people in a very unethical way. They just state how ethernet cables work, and let the viewer assume they're saying things that are relevant to sound quality, since it's billed as being for audiophiles. Of course, it does nothing at all for sound quality, but hey, don't let that stop you from spending >$200/m on a cable that ought to cost $4.

I would argue that most of this language and framing goes beyond puffery, and many or most of them would lose a class action. Unfortunately that's the only worthwhile type of lawsuit against a firm like this, and their customers actually get angry if you tell them they've been fooled, so I guess the chain of deception will remain unbroken.

I sympathise with everything you say, and I picked up on exactly the same point on the Shunyata page. But the puff doesn't hurt anyone, no one suffers a loss, and if you're not satisfied you can get your money back. So I don't think there's going to be a class action anytime soon.

 

[JSmith]

no one suffers a loss

I beg to differ... the buyer suffers financial loss for no benefit whatsoever over normal cables, apart from maybe aesthetics (if you're into cables that look like snakes).

A large portion of the audio industry aimed at audiophiles is nothing but misrepresentation, basically fraud.


JSmith

 

[Deleted member 51584]

To alleviate any confusion...I used to work for US-based divisions of Bayer AG, the global healthcare firm, which is not related to Beyerdynamic audio products firm. A coworker of mine spent a couple of years in Germany under a job swapping program and learned about the development of heroin during his time there.

Bayer AG bought the business that I worked for, Miles Labs, in 1978 and eventually managers from across the pond got it involved in a price fixing cartel with ADM that was a sister to the one featured in the movie "The Informant." I actually knew folks who left Miles and went to work for the "star" of "The Informant" before the crap hit the fan.

So yeah, perhaps it's little wonder why I also question the ethics of many large firms, not only in audio.

US Pharma has more lobbyists in Washington than any other industry. One of the main reasons why trade discussions between the EU/UK and US fell apart was because the EU/UK refused to give US Pharma access to our healthcare systems on their terms. US healthcare spending per capita is far higher than anywhere else in the world.

The 6 or so global Pharma businesses may run a cartel, but generally they don't lie about their products and they can only be sold if they work. Much of their marketing is actually through doctors, using medical focus groups to decide where and how to sell products. In the UK a few doctors take a small amount of money from Pharma companies, but it's not a big problem. In the USA it's a free market and the amount of money paid to doctors is astronomical:

We Found Over 700 Doctors Who Were Paid More Than a Million Dollars by Drug and Medical Device Companies

ProPublica has been tracking drug company spending on doctors since 2010. We just updated our database and found that companies are still paying private doctors huge sums for promotional talks and consulting.

www.propublica.org

The USA situation is avoided in the UK/EU by regulation and other market controls. It makes a big difference to national economies, that may spend 5-8% of GDP on healthcare. When the high-end audio industry gets that large, then maybe there will be some regulation.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

I beg to differ... the buyer suffers financial loss for no benefit whatsoever over normal cables, apart from maybe aesthetics (if you're into cables that look like snakes).

A large portion of the audio industry aimed at audiophiles is nothing but misrepresentation, basically fraud.


JSmith

I disagree. A lot of audiophile and high-end is still done retail, face-to-face, and anyone who's been in retail knows that you have to be honest with customers for them not to become ex-customers, and audiophile retail depends on keeping long-term customers.
I was at a dealer earlier this year and we were looking at a D'Agostino integrated amplifier that was about $40,000. The dealer was quite honest that you are probably paying more for the bling than for the electronics, but some customers love it and make that decision in full knowledge of that fact. I have only bought audio from dealers on the basis that I can try it out and return it, with no obligation, no up-front payment. As far as cables are concerned, these dealers basically tell me that they have nothing to do with whether their customers are cable-believers or not, the believers come asking for the high-price cables, the non-believers just want something well made and functional. No dealer has ever tried to sell me expensive cables. I go to open days at dealers, they are very popular, and I have yet to meet anyone who felt they were a victim of fraud. Quite the opposite.
I place most of the blame for misinformation on reviewers, who are sometimes (but not always) in the pocket of manufacturers, but it's only their opinion.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

A lot of audiophile and high-end is still done retail, face-to-face, and anyone who's been in retail knows that you have to be honest with customers for them not to become ex-customers, and audiophile retail depends on keeping long-term customers.

Yeaaah no. Not even close.

While you have the odd honest soul, most dealers talk out of their rear ends all day. As an engineer, the nonsense is fairly easy to spot. From "an amp needs a beefy toroid to work!" to "digital signals are steps and thus always inferior to analog!" to "audiophile cables can easily be distinguished and are worth the expense" ... I've heard it all... in person. Oftentimes starting heated arguments or bursting out in laughter resulting in sour facial expressions.

My judgment: audiophile stores are a frikkin mine field for the uneducated and they gladly take advantage of your lack of knowledge with a "customer friendly smile".

 

[IAtaman]

My judgment: audiophile stores are a frikkin mine field for the uneducated and they gladly take advantage of your lack of knowledge with a "customer friendly smile".

That is also my experience. Was in a high end audio store recently and one of the sales guys was trying to sell this couple on an expensive sound system. The amount BS he spewed in a matter of minutes was eye watering. Funnily enough, later talking to the guy, I came to learn that he moved here recently and claimed he used to work for HeadFi as if it is a badge of credibility. Pffftt..

 

[BDWoody]

I have yet to meet anyone who felt they were a victim of fraud. Quite the opposite

Ignorance can be very expensive.

 

[fpitas]

Well, I didn't have strong feelings about this subject. Then I opened my amplifiers. Nothing but wads of toilet paper and some google-eyes!

 

[sejarzo]

US Pharma has more lobbyists in Washington than any other industry. One of the main reasons why trade discussions between the EU/UK and US fell apart was because the EU/UK refused to give US Pharma access to our healthcare systems on their terms. US healthcare spending per capita is far higher than anywhere else in the world.

An extremely common misconception among US residents is that the only reason civilized nations outside the US can afford universal care is that "we spend so much defending them that they can spend the savings on healthcare"...which as you know, it utter rot that could not be further from the truth. Our so-called "best in the world healthcare system" is bloated with ridiculous administrative overhead. Healthcare and military spending as a % of GDP in 2020, from the Statista web site:

When my wife and I visited Portugal last fall, we really enjoyed speaking with folks from a number of different countries...most of whom expressed some degree of disbelief in what they had read about the level of denial of climate change by US residents, and sadly, we had to tell them it was true.

I'm 65 and an engineer. The decline in interest and knowledge of basic science and economics here over my career has befuddled me...so I suppose it's no wonder this thread is essentially about snake oil/unfounded claims and how folks here fall for it.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

Yeaaah no. Not even close.

While you have the odd honest soul, most dealers talk out of their rear ends all day. As an engineer, the nonsense is fairly easy to spot. From "an amp needs a beefy toroid to work!" to "digital signals are steps and thus always inferior to analog!" to "audiophile cables can easily be distinguished and are worth the expense" ... I've heard it all... in person. Oftentimes starting heated arguments or or bursting out in laughter resulting in sour facial expressions.

My judgment: audiophile stores are a frikkin mine field for the uneducated and they gladly take advantage of your lack of knowledge with a "customer friendly smile".

Not my experience. My first choice dealer sold me my current speakers in 2020 and my first decent pair of speakers in 1980. Back then we used to check the product specifications and then go along and have a demo. Now it's more home loans. I tend to buy products that are reliable, serviceable and upgradeable. Most things I've bought I've used for 10+ years. My main electronics unit was manufactured in 2010 and with several upgrades since remains the current model. I like a good app. These things I find best addressed in a store. I have bought online occasionally.

In 40+ years I can never remember a hard sell or any mumbo-jumbo technical talk, with that store or any other hifi dealers I've used. I have had people talk technical to me, I remember when buying TV screens in 2021. I said to the salesman "can you explain that to me in English, please" and, to his credit, he completely changed tack and not long after I'd bought two screens. When you walk into a department store and the salesman doesn't know you, they don't know the correct pitch. The last thing I would do is argue with someone in public, just say thank you and leave.

An extremely common misconception among US residents is that the only reason civilized nations outside the US can afford universal care is that "we spend so much defending them that they can spend the savings on healthcare"...which as you know, it utter rot that could not be further from the truth. Our so-called "best in the world healthcare system" is bloated with ridiculous administrative overhead. Healthcare and military spending as a % of GDP in 2020, from the Statista web site:

View attachment 274024

When my wife and I visited Portugal last fall, we really enjoyed speaking with folks from a number of different countries...most of whom expressed some degree of disbelief in what they had read about the level of denial of climate change by US residents, and sadly, we had to tell them it was true.

I'm 65 and an engineer. The decline in interest and knowledge of basic science and economics here over my career has befuddled me...so I suppose it's no wonder this thread is essentially about snake oil/unfounded claims and how folks here fall for it.

Thank you for posting that, I'm familiar with those figures. Curiously, the figure for Korea is low because they have a very good protein-rich diet, so the population is exceptionally healthy with close to the best life expectancy, 6 years longer than in the USA and 3 years longer than the UK.

Climate change denial is driven by market economics so, besides policy and regulation, the main driver for change is to make green energy more profitable, which is very difficult. The best way to educate people is at the most basic level. In the UK, various towns have policies to reduce emissions and CO2 vehicle use. The result is better air quality. People appreciate and understand it. Getting deeply technical rarely wins arguments, like the 1.5 degree Celsius target thing, it just confuses people or turns them off completely. My kids are in their mid 20s, live in cities in different countries and neither has a driving license. It results from a range of anti-car policies. I wonder if that happens in the USA.

We used to be entitled to our own opinion. Now we are entitled to our own facts. Ask Prince Harry. I'm as befuddled as you are.

 

[ribonucleic]

Here's a pretty honest one, but it's still exploiting people in a very unethical way. They just state how ethernet cables work, and let the viewer assume they're saying things that are relevant to sound quality, since it's billed as being for audiophiles. Of course, it does nothing at all for sound quality, but hey, don't let that stop you from spending >$200/m on a cable that ought to cost $4.

I found this pernicious.

... too often the interconnecting cables that marry these devices get overlooked with an, “any old Ethernet cable will do” attitude. ...

An improperly built, seasoned/aging or lesser Category rated Ethernet Cable can easily become a bottleneck that affects system wide audio performance. Knowing this, you can quickly understand the need for a high end Ethernet Cable that’s built for the task.

Give the copywriter credit: They know the insecurities of their target audience and how to exploit them.

[ominous whispering in the customer's ear]

you overlooked your Ethernet cable... it's why you're not satisfied... it's improperly built... it's worn out... it's lesser... but now you understand... you need this expensive cable... it will make you happy...

Evil.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Here are Shunyata's claims: https://shunyata.com/power-cable-tech/
Is there anything fraudulent here? They say, for example, that pure copper connectors sound better than brass or bronze. (I thought pure copper was avoided simply because it it too soft.) You might say "prove it". They will say "we compared in our lab and that was our opinion". It's a road to nowhere. I have absolutely no doubt that Shunyata have all this stuff checked out.

Shunyata has the title of being the biggest scammers around. Theri advertising copy is full of nonsense information relating to audio. You picked a true legend in your argument. Also, they do NOT say it is opinion in their material. They are in it for the money and any scam will do. True snake oil.

 

[ribonucleic]

Shunyata has the title of being the biggest scammers around. Theri advertising copy is full of nonsense information relating to audio. You picked a true legend in your argument. Also, they do NOT say it is opinion in their material. They are in it for the money and any scam will do. True snake oil.

They have a line of products branded "Venom", which kind of tells you what they think of their customers.

But of course I want the "Omega" speaker cables. There can be none better! Says so right in the name!

These energy-absorbing bands have the unique ability to dissipate vibrational energy that travels along the surface of the cable and through the floor.

A bargain at $3,000 per foot.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

I found this pernicious.



Give the copywriter credit: They know the insecurities of their target audience and how to exploit them.

[ominous whispering in the customer's ear]

you overlooked your Ethernet cable... it's why you're not satisfied... it's improperly built... it's worn out... it's lesser... but now you understand... you need this expensive cable... it will make you happy...

Evil.

As it happens, some ethernet cables are poorly made and can easily be damaged when dragged under floors, through conduits etc. Both the cable and the connectors can be damaged. I have several such cables, one runs under the garden and is 50m long. I bought a load of AudioQuest Pearl 6a off the reel for about £3.50 p/m, a crimping tool and testing device and do the terminations myself. It is very solid indestructible cable with thicker than standard wires, which makes it a lot easier to terminate. For more accessible runs I use generic cables from Amazon. This is mainly for wireless access points, my wired connections are two 25m fire-optic cables, and you have to be careful with them.

When I've run new cables through conduits, I run it unterminated and then do the connection. I have a cheap 25m cable that I use to create the loop for the testing device.

 

[ribonucleic]

I bought a load of AudioQuest Pearl 6a off the reel for about £3.50 p/m

AudioQuest says of their "Diamond" range:

solid 100% Perfect-Surface Silver conductors, which completely eliminate strand interaction, one of the biggest sources of distortion in cables, for clearer, more dynamic and involving sound

You don't find the "Pearl" distorting due to strand interaction?

 

[atmasphere]

There are no veils that can be lifted by a cable, no matter how esoteric.

Or veils lifted by cable lifters?

Nordost claims their "revolutionary" Dual Mono-Filament technology produces a "dramatic increase in signal speed". Since regular speaker wire sends its signal at 1/2 the speed of light, this could mean a two-fold increase. (Unless they've found a way to exceed the speed of light, which would be revolutionary indeed.)

If one's speakers are 20 feet away, this means the difference between the signal arriving in a crisp .00000002 of a second rather than a sluggish .00000004 of a second.

Seems worth a few tens of thousands of dollars to me.

Is there some way you could make a warp drive out of that?

 

[ribonucleic]

Is there some way you could make a warp drive out of that?

Send me back in time so I can be in the Village Vanguard during Coltrane's set...

Won't get better sound quality than that!

 

[fpitas]

My impression is that it is the reviewers who make these statements, not the manufacturer advertising puff.

This thread is full of manufacturer's claims.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

AudioQuest says of their "Diamond" range:



You don't find the "Pearl" distorting due to strand interaction?

I wish I'd known. Do they sell the silver stuff off the reel?
To answer your question, no, I don't hear voices that aren't meant to be there.
I use the AQ for access points, not to feed wired audio or AV.