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Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

kemmler3D

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the puff doesn't hurt anyone, no one suffers a loss,
Disagree, there are lots of people who earnestly believe in expensive cables through no fault of their own, they were just exposed to the wrong information when they started getting into audio. If you don't have any formal background in electronics or audio, and you self-educate on it by going on Youtube or Audiogon... you may end up emptying your pockets for these thieves instead of spending your money on something that matters.

Every dollar that goes to cables above a very low threshold ought to go to speakers or room treatment or DSP instead, and those dollars represent a very real harm to the consumer.

An aside: The connector thing is also not an actual example of puffery. Puffery is a legal term that refers to language that seems to make a claim, but doesn't refer to anything concrete or measurable. Puffery annoys consumers, but is allowed. So if I say "these are the world's best cables", that's puffery because "best" doesn't have a specific definition here. If I say "These are the world's lowest-resistance cables", that's not puffery and I'd better be able to back it up with measurements if anyone asks.

As you note, 99% of what they write is puffery, with good reason.
and if you're not satisfied you can get your money back. So I don't think there's going to be a class action anytime soon.
This, I agree with, fortunately and unfortunately for the latter.
 

egellings

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Well, not really: like any non-temperature-compenstated quartz watch, it can drift by up to a second per day (usually less), and then gets corrected by the radio signal at night (if it makes the connection).
What practical need would there be for such preposterous accuracy in a wristwatch?
 

egellings

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An extremely common misconception among US residents is that the only reason civilized nations outside the US can afford universal care is that "we spend so much defending them that they can spend the savings on healthcare"...which as you know, it utter rot that could not be further from the truth. Our so-called "best in the world healthcare system" is bloated with ridiculous administrative overhead. Healthcare and military spending as a % of GDP in 2020, from the Statista web site:

View attachment 274024

When my wife and I visited Portugal last fall, we really enjoyed speaking with folks from a number of different countries...most of whom expressed some degree of disbelief in what they had read about the level of denial of climate change by US residents, and sadly, we had to tell them it was true.

I'm 65 and an engineer. The decline in interest and knowledge of basic science and economics here over my career has befuddled me...so I suppose it's no wonder this thread is essentially about snake oil/unfounded claims and how folks here fall for it.
It's easier to just decide to believe in something than it is to do the work needed to understand that something.
 

sejarzo

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What practical need would there be for such preposterous accuracy in a wristwatch?

No practical need, but it's easily attained with current technology at low price, and daily over-the-air correction--that is, if it connects--means you never have to reset it unless you travel between time zones.
 

fpitas

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No practical need, but it's easily attained with current technology at low price, and daily over-the-air correction--that is, if it connects--means you never have to reset it unless you travel between time zones.
With GPS it can even account for that.
 

sergeauckland

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What practical need would there be for such preposterous accuracy in a wristwatch?
I do the engineering for our local radio station. We have a satellite feed for our National News, where the switchover has to be done to the split second, typically around 500mS. I use my Radio controlled watch to check that the PCs that do the switching keep to time, and that our Satellite receiver delay is low.

Apart from that, I use it to give me a smug satisfaction that my watch is more accurate than the time checks on digital TV and radio.

S
 

egellings

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I do the engineering for our local radio station. We have a satellite feed for our National News, where the switchover has to be done to the split second, typically around 500mS. I use my Radio controlled watch to check that the PCs that do the switching keep to time, and that our Satellite receiver delay is low.

Apart from that, I use it to give me a smug satisfaction that my watch is more accurate than the time checks on digital TV and radio.

S
500 milliseconds? I can go out, get coffee, and be back in that much time!
 
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I've been on these forums for quite a while, and while I don't believe everything that is being said here, I'm constantly catching myself believing in the fraud.

Case and point - I spent well over $2000CAD on a Pre-amp (with >$500 on tubes for a Freya+) and a Denafrips Ares II, think that I will have an amazing setup with these two items. I've been listening to them for over a year now and I consider them to be great.

Lo and behold, I decided to buy a SMSL DO200, for around $399 in the last 11.11 sale, and plugged it in. Immediately, I heard a lot worse sound, lack of bass and something's wrong with my speakers. Thinking to myself ah ha! I’ve made the right purchase decisions.

I then realized I had wired the left and rights wrong, so I fixed it and what a surprise, everything returned. More deeper bass (if you see my other thread about lack of bass with my R11's), room shaking response, a sense of excitement that was sorely lacking in the Denafrips and Freya combo, and just a sheer sense of "speed". Drums felt like they hit me with force, whereas in the previous setup they were dulled a bit. Although we are talking 99.9 vs 99.8 difference. The price difference is almost $2500 vs $399.

The more and more I realize, maybe this industry is just a load of fraud? Even using my wife as a test, she likes the SMSL far better (her hearing range is far better than mine actually, she can hear things I cannot, like small high pitched sounds in the music here and there).

TL/DR - basically, I spent $$$ on equipment that did nothing but burn money, all replaced by a $399 DAC that does it all. I'm also using mono LA90's which are amazing as well.

My question is - is the rest of the audio industry just full of it?
I don't want to rain on your parade but some some things truly are easier heard than measured. I have a PhD in physics but don't have a lot of test equipment laying around unless I bring an Oscope from work and years ago when I made these observations I was not a scientist then. I had a Thorens TD290 turntable (until the circuit board failed) and I replaced the chrome (?) plated RCA plugs with thick, majestic looking gold plated OFHC ones from Esoteric Audio USA in the 1990s when they were making very good speaker wire and interconnects - I have dozens of their wire products still. (OFHC oxygen free high conductivity or electrolytic grade copper with nitrogen cell foam - oxygen is "corrosive"). Immediately the treble was brighter! The phonograph cartridge was the Stanton 681 EEE Calibration Standard. I still have it in a box with two other styli. It was indeed an AUDIBLE difference! Why? Gold is a much better electrical conductor than chromium (and aluminum) even though it is poorer than copper and especially silver. I used silver solder to make the connections, cutting off the old plugs, stripping the wires, and soldering on the new plugs. I even wore rubber gloves when I did that to avoid contamination by skin oils! (It is a relief to me that new turntables are not hard wired. They simply have RCA jacks now and I can use the cables I still have.) I also have a Marantz 6200 turntable that I will soon do some work on - I got a capacitor kit specifically for the 6200 from a company on eBay, and also got from a specialty audio company in Florida silver plated phonograph cables to replace, noch einmal (German: once again) those darned chrome plated RCA plugs. I have had the Marantz since before the Thorens and have history with it too. The headshell that came with it is 13.5 grams and I noticed the Shure M95ED nude diamond needle was getting narrower. I bought a new stylus but decided I needed to do more than that as the chrome plated S shaped arm was too massive. I bought two 6 gram Supex headshells from a local stereo store and decided I would not use the lead sheets enclosed with them. I removed the chrome plated brass counterweight and found a local gunsmith with a drill press. He drilled two holes in the back but I had to come back and have him drill two more. I mounted the Shure in the bare Supex shells, rebalanced the arm, set the tracking force, and shure enough (Ha ha!) Linda Ronstadt's "sinus condition" was GONE! It was an AUDIBLE improvement. I heard it - I did not imagine that I heard it. Why? Lower effective moving mass allowed the stylus to track the groove more precisely. Please note that I heard the new stylus before and after the drill press work so that was NOT the issue! (Currently I am using a U-turn Orbit Custom with a Grado Prestige Series Black 3, Soundcraftsmen stereo separates: A100 amplifier with MOSFET power transistors and toroidal transformer, P100 preamp, T100 AM/FM tuner, Klipsch KSF 8.5 tower speakers, Herbies Way Excellent II turntable mat, and the 8MZ stylus replacement whenever I want to use it. My ears are imperfect now but the sound from all this USA made equipment is fantastic. Singly they may be imperfect - except for my old but mint condition Soundcraftsmen gear! - but together it is a perfect synergy. "Time" from "The Dark Side of the Moon" is out of this world.) Now is there fraud? Yes and much of it is at the "mid fi" level. I need to motivate myself to write a letter of complaint to the FTC. Japanese makers of Audio video receivers (made in Malaysia) will say things like "60 watts per channel with all [5] speakers driven" AND power consumption is like only 200 watts. Obviously that is a massive violation of the principle of conservation of energy. You simply cannot get out more (300 watts) than the 200 you put in! Probably they mean "peak power" not average power but it is still FRAUDULENT! I will say one more thing - those speakers you see on the covers of "The Absolute Sound" and "Stereophile" are frequently like works of art and people with $$$ will want them. What kind of car do you drive? If you had all the $$$ you wanted you might want to buy a Corvette, a Viper, a Ferrari, or a Lamborghini. Now they are all cars and will take you from point A to point B - right? The same is probably true of those power amps and speakers that cost as much as a Corvette. Now if I had all the $$$ I wanted I would still buy an American car, a Tuatara! I'm just saying that there is a class of people who want to enjoy "the finer things in life". Now I am not a member of that club but at the same time I do NOT resent them. One last thing (really!) all this writing has brought to mind: R. D. Laing in "The Pollitics of Experience" said something like "your experience of you experiencing me is not the same as my experience of me experiencing you. We demand to experience the evidence but experience is the only evidence." That last sentence is very important, even here.
 
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Ken1951

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I don't want to rain on your parade but some some things truly are easier heard than measured. I have a PhD in physics but don't have a lot of test equipment laying around unless I bring an Oscope from work and years ago when I made these observations I was not a scientist then. I had a Thorens TD290 turntable (until the circuit board failed) and I replaced the chrome (?) plated RCA plugs with thick, majestic looking gold plated OFHC ones from Esoteric Audio USA in the 1990s when they were making very good speaker wire and interconnects - I have dozens of their wire products still. (OFHC oxygen free high conductivity or electrolytic grade copper with nitrogen cell foam - oxygen is "corrosive"). Immediately the treble was brighter! The phonograph cartridge was the Stanton 681 EEE Calibration Standard. I still have it in a box with two other styli. It was indeed an AUDIBLE difference! Why? Gold is a much better electrical conductor than chromium (and aluminum) even though it is poorer than copper and especially silver. I used silver solder to make the connections, cutting off the old plugs, stripping the wires, and soldering on the new plugs. I even wore rubber gloves when I did that to avoid contamination by skin oils! (It is a relief to me that new turntables are not hard wired. They simply have RCA jacks now and I can use the cables I still have.) I also have a Marantz 6200 turntable that I will soon do some work on - I got a capacitor kit specifically for the 6200 from a company on eBay, and also got from a specialty audio company in Florida silver plated phonograph cables to replace, noch einmal (German: once again) those darned chrome plated RCA plugs. I have had the Marantz since before the Thorens and have history with it too. The headshell that came with it is 13.5 grams and I noticed the Shure M95ED nude diamond needle was getting narrower. I bought a new stylus but decided I needed to do more than that as the chrome plated S shaped arm was too massive. I bought two 6 gram Supex headshells from a local stereo store and decided I would not use the lead sheets enclosed with them. I removed the chrome plated brass counterweight and found a local gunsmith with a drill press. He drilled two holes in the back but I had to come back and have him drill two more. I mounted the Shure in the bare Supex shells, rebalanced the arm, set the tracking force, and shure enough (Ha ha!) Linda Ronstadt's "sinus condition" was GONE! It was an AUDIBLE improvement. I heard it - I did not imagine that I heard it. Why? Lower effective moving mass allowed the stylus to track the groove more precisely. Please note that I heard the new stylus before and after the drill press work so that was NOT the issue! (Currently I am using a U-turn Orbit Custom with a Grado Prestige Series Black 3, Soundcraftsmen stereo separates: A100 amplifier with MOSFET power transistors and toroidal transformer, P100 preamp, T100 AM/FM tuner, Klipsch KSF 8.5 tower speakers, Herbies Way Excellent II turntable mat, and the 8MZ stylus replacement whenever I want to use it. My ears are imperfect now but the sound from all this USA made equipment is fantastic. Singly they may be imperfect - except for my old but mint condition Soundcraftsmen gear! - but together it is a perfect synergy. "Time" from "The Dark Side of the Moon" is out of this world.) Now is there fraud? Yes and much of it is at the "mid fi" level. I need to motivate myself to write a letter of complaint to the FTC. Japanese makers of Audio video receivers (made in Malaysia) will say things like "60 watts per channel with all [5] speakers driven" AND power consumption is like only 200 watts. Obviously that is a massive violation of the principle of conservation of energy. You simply cannot get out more (300 watts) than the 200 you put in! Probably they mean "peak power" not average power but it is still FRAUDULENT! I will say one more thing - those speakers you see on the covers of "The Absolute Sound" and "Stereophile" are frequently like works of art and people with $$$ will want them. What kind of car do you drive? If you had all the $$$ you wanted you might want to buy a Corvette, a Viper, a Ferrari, or a Lamborghini. Now they are all cars and will take you from point A to point B - right? The same is probably true of those power amps and speakers that cost as much as a Corvette. Now if I had all the $$$ I wanted I would still buy an American car, a Tuatara! I'm just saying that there is a class of people who want to enjoy "the finer things in life". Now I am not a member of that club but at the same time I do NOT resent them. One last thing (really!) all this writing has brought to mind: R. D. Laing in "The Pollitics of Experience" said something like "your experience of you experiencing me is not the same as my experience of me experiencing you. We demand to experience the evidence but experience is the only evidence." That last sentence is very important, even here.
Dude, you ever heard of the concept of the paragraph??
 

JSmith

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I'm just saying that there is a class of people who want to enjoy "the finer things in life".
What's that got to do with high fidelity audio reproduction? Amp wise for example, "the finer things" to me is excellent measurements, build quality, appropriate power and agreeable aesthetics. Car analogies rarely work well when discussing audio devices from my experience, so I won't dissect yours... apart from saying it would be very easy to do so.


JSmith
 

ahofer

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The whole thing boils down to extrinsic vs intrinsic value (I won’t bother you with the financial options definitions, but that’s where I come from). Intrinsic value is functional. In the case of audio equipment, the effect on the audible sound. Extrinsic value is the other stuff - the brand, the status, the psychological effects on your ego, etc. It seems to me that audiophilia is not unique, but distinctly unusual in confusing the two.
 
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kemmler3D

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some some things truly are easier heard than measured.
Most audible things are easier to hear than to measure (measuring audio properly is not trivial) but I don't know what that has to do with fraudulent / false advertising in the industry.

There are plenty of examples of cable manufacturers in particular flat-out lying about what their cables do, or even heavily implying they do things that cables simply cannot do. That's a totally different consideration from whether people want to spend too much money on stuff, or hear differences in styli, or whatever.
 

teched58

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I don't want to rain on your parade but some some things truly are easier heard than measured. I have a PhD in physics but don't have a lot of test equipment laying around unless I bring an Oscope from work and years ago when I made these observations I was not a scientist then. I had a Thorens TD290 turntable (until the circuit board failed) and I replaced the chrome (?) plated RCA plugs with thick, majestic looking gold plated OFHC ones from Esoteric Audio USA in the 1990s when they were making very good speaker wire and interconnects - I have dozens of their wire products still. (OFHC oxygen free high conductivity or electrolytic grade copper with nitrogen cell foam - oxygen is "corrosive"). Immediately the treble was brighter! The phonograph cartridge was the Stanton 681 EEE Calibration Standard. I still have it in a box with two other styli. It was indeed an AUDIBLE difference! Why? Gold is a much better electrical conductor than chromium (and aluminum) even though it is poorer than copper and especially silver. I used silver solder to make the connections, cutting off the old plugs, stripping the wires, and soldering on the new plugs. I even wore rubber gloves when I did that to avoid contamination by skin oils! (It is a relief to me that new turntables are not hard wired. They simply have RCA jacks now and I can use the cables I still have.) I also have a Marantz 6200 turntable that I will soon do some work on - I got a capacitor kit specifically for the 6200 from a company on eBay, and also got from a specialty audio company in Florida silver plated phonograph cables to replace, noch einmal (German: once again) those darned chrome plated RCA plugs. I have had the Marantz since before the Thorens and have history with it too. The headshell that came with it is 13.5 grams and I noticed the Shure M95ED nude diamond needle was getting narrower. I bought a new stylus but decided I needed to do more than that as the chrome plated S shaped arm was too massive. I bought two 6 gram Supex headshells from a local stereo store and decided I would not use the lead sheets enclosed with them. I removed the chrome plated brass counterweight and found a local gunsmith with a drill press. He drilled two holes in the back but I had to come back and have him drill two more. I mounted the Shure in the bare Supex shells, rebalanced the arm, set the tracking force, and shure enough (Ha ha!) Linda Ronstadt's "sinus condition" was GONE! It was an AUDIBLE improvement. I heard it - I did not imagine that I heard it. Why? Lower effective moving mass allowed the stylus to track the groove more precisely. Please note that I heard the new stylus before and after the drill press work so that was NOT the issue! (Currently I am using a U-turn Orbit Custom with a Grado Prestige Series Black 3, Soundcraftsmen stereo separates: A100 amplifier with MOSFET power transistors and toroidal transformer, P100 preamp, T100 AM/FM tuner, Klipsch KSF 8.5 tower speakers, Herbies Way Excellent II turntable mat, and the 8MZ stylus replacement whenever I want to use it. My ears are imperfect now but the sound from all this USA made equipment is fantastic. Singly they may be imperfect - except for my old but mint condition Soundcraftsmen gear! - but together it is a perfect synergy. "Time" from "The Dark Side of the Moon" is out of this world.) Now is there fraud? Yes and much of it is at the "mid fi" level. I need to motivate myself to write a letter of complaint to the FTC. Japanese makers of Audio video receivers (made in Malaysia) will say things like "60 watts per channel with all [5] speakers driven" AND power consumption is like only 200 watts. Obviously that is a massive violation of the principle of conservation of energy. You simply cannot get out more (300 watts) than the 200 you put in! Probably they mean "peak power" not average power but it is still FRAUDULENT! I will say one more thing - those speakers you see on the covers of "The Absolute Sound" and "Stereophile" are frequently like works of art and people with $$$ will want them. What kind of car do you drive? If you had all the $$$ you wanted you might want to buy a Corvette, a Viper, a Ferrari, or a Lamborghini. Now they are all cars and will take you from point A to point B - right? The same is probably true of those power amps and speakers that cost as much as a Corvette. Now if I had all the $$$ I wanted I would still buy an American car, a Tuatara! I'm just saying that there is a class of people who want to enjoy "the finer things in life". Now I am not a member of that club but at the same time I do NOT resent them. One last thing (really!) all this writing has brought to mind: R. D. Laing in "The Pollitics of Experience" said something like "your experience of you experiencing me is not the same as my experience of me experiencing you. We demand to experience the evidence but experience is the only evidence." That last sentence is very important, even here.
I like that you didn't use paragraph breaks; it makes your post so much easier to read. But I am disappointed that your post is so short.
 

fpitas

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