Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[bodhi]

Can we define where the snakeoil starts? Even on these forums, with audio science, I feel like there's a huge amount of snake oil - for example:

Nothing snaky selling equipment which is measurably better than competition. The hissing starts when somebody is claiming without evidence that the better performance causes audible improvements in sound.

No point in making it difficult: just label everything that is claimed to something which cannot be measured or otherwise proven as snake oil, that covers most of the usual suspects.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

It's an interesting phenomenon around here, and elsewhere, especially in "discussions" about class D amplifiers: bickering over minor distortion in frequencies so high and at such low amplitude that dogs or even bats would struggle to hear any of it.

I can only guess that one wants to keep their pets happy too

 

[Newman]

I think we have covered this before: ASR-oriented people aren’t claiming to have superhuman hearing, we understand that half-decent-for-electronics SINAD and flat 20-20k FR means the component will not bring a big sonic issue while listening to music.

BUT if a company can’t do the above easy bit well, and for a few hundred bucks, it’s not a good sign. What else can’t they do well? Why should we trust them to implement anything well? Or reliably and consistently. And are they fooling themselves during product development with sighted listening? Is that why they chose expensive solid silver wiring, or OFC for that matter, or expensive foil capacitors, or chose some ‘special proprietary circuit element’ that just happens to drop SINAD to mediocre levels but ‘sounds better’? And pricing: are they just setting a price 4x-5x higher because they want to sell to buyers who want to pay that much?

So, the thinking at ASR is, why should we reward such companies?

@simplywyn @Vive la dissonance!

 

[egellings]

Thing is, some buyers of PS Audio equipment will like it and not regret making the purchase, no matter the cost or what reviewers say about it.

 

[ahofer]

Thing is, some buyers of PS Audio equipment will like it and not regret making the purchase, no matter the cost or what reviewers say about it.

Which is fine, as long as they aren't asking us for reassurance about their purchase, which seems to be a good portion of audiophile forum participation (internet-wide, not here)

 

[mhardy6647]

This is why it's so insanely stupid, anything past the green line is pretty much audibly insignificant since CD music has a limit of 96db, and human hear is probably no better than that.

Probably time to start plotting that logarithmically, I think... which actually gets pretty meta, the more I think about it...

 

[Axo1989]

I think we have covered this before: ASR-oriented people aren’t claiming to have superhuman hearing, we understand that half-decent-for-electronics SINAD and flat 20-20k FR means the component will not bring a big sonic issue while listening to music.

BUT if a company can’t do the above easy bit well, and for a few hundred bucks, it’s not a good sign. What else can’t they do well? Why should we trust them to implement anything well? Or reliably and consistently. And are they fooling themselves during product development with sighted listening? Is that why they chose expensive solid silver wiring, or OFC for that matter, or expensive foil capacitors, or chose some ‘special proprietary circuit element’ that just happens to drop SINAD to mediocre levels but ‘sounds better’? And pricing: are they just setting a price 4x-5x higher because they want to sell to buyers who want to pay that much?

So, the thinking at ASR is, why should we reward such companies?

@simplywyn @Vive la dissonance!

Sure, but once sonic performance is acceptable (and leaving aside discussion of driving real speakers in real rooms, etc) why would I "reward" manufacturers who fall short on industrial design, haptics and UI/UX?

 

[Newman]

Where did you get that idea from what I wrote?

 

[Axo1989]

Where did you get that idea from what I wrote?

I could have started with "sure, and" instead of "sure, but" I guess. In other words I agree SINAD as proxy for good engineering is useful, but "for a few hundred bucks" is problematic as a frame for the argument (assuming we are talking about "the entire audio industry" wrt to electronic components and not restricted to stereo DACs). That may be too limiting depending where your preferences for industrial design, haptics and UI/UX are distributed.

 

[simplywyn]

It’s sad watching all these old people defend their ****** decisions.

Audiophiles are not better than flat earthers. It’s almost pathetic, like flat earthers with money.

Blows my mind.

I’m glad that we can just buy 99% as good as the top level at marginal cost.

Thank god for places like audiosciencereview.

I wished I came here earlier, would’ve saved me a ton of money. Buckeye amp cost me $600 and beats every amp I’ve ever owned by miles. DAC from Amir’s reviews tell me they don’t even matter (and trust me, they don’t. I compared my topping d90 to my friends $100 DAC, and I couldn’t really find any real detail)

I was literally banned at places for speaking my thoughts, asking just general questions that people were just "telling me the truth" or "trust their opinion", people told me to get out of there when I said it didn't make any sense, but I'm just an electrical engineer not a audio engineer.

 

[Dismayed]

Simple. Use that chat gpt thing. Input the descriptions of the components and have it simulate a result.

Yes, ChatGPT included lots of buzzwords in describing my Quantum Discombobulator.

Could ChatGPT Replace Audio Writers?

I asked ChatGPT to write ad copy for a revolutionary new audio device, The Quantum Discombobulator. It produced copy worthy of Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. I haven’t set price yet, but it will be expensive! Introducing the Quantum Discombobulator - the ultimate audio upgrade for your...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[antcollinet]

Seen the same with pool cues. Saturday night players getting 1,5k€ cue and bunch of premium accessories when any semi-competent competing junior player could trash them with a broomstick.

A 1.5K say what now???

What on earth can you do to a pool cue to make it cost 1.5K?

 

[sergeauckland]

A 1.5K say what now???

What on earth can you do to a pool cue to make it cost 1.5K?

The same as you do to a piece of coax cable to make it cost $20,000

S.

 

[antcollinet]

The same as you do to a piece of coax cable to make it cost $20,000

S.

What? Put a mesh sock and shiney crystals on it?

 

[fpitas]

Sometimes I get the impression that people new to ASR think that SINAD is bad because they think tricky or dishonest manufacturers can make a device with very good SINAD, but the rest of the device is crap. In other words, they think that SINAD is a measurement of something completely and totally separate from other engineered functions.

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see how that would even be possible.

Jim

Simple. You make something with cheap, digital glaring parts with lots of digital steps and EQ, then add a couple drops of concentrated SINAD fluid at the end. No wonder it sounds so harsh and unnatural.

 

[mhardy6647]

Yes, ChatGPT included lots of buzzwords in describing my Quantum Discombobulator.

Could ChatGPT Replace Audio Writers?

I asked ChatGPT to write ad copy for a revolutionary new audio device, The Quantum Discombobulator. It produced copy worthy of Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. I haven’t set price yet, but it will be expensive! Introducing the Quantum Discombobulator - the ultimate audio upgrade for your...

www.audiosciencereview.com

AI's test will come when it's challenged with the task of recombobulation.

 

[bodhi]

A 1.5K say what now???

What on earth can you do to a pool cue to make it cost 1.5K?

Oh, you can spend a lot more.

I don't remember what was done to the thing but supposedly it decreased the vibrations transferred to the ball on impact. And because of this you gained more control and could for example hit the ball more off-axis without altering it's trajectory as much as with normal cues.

It might be true if measured accurately enough but trust me, that problem was not the one holding those people back.

 

[JustJones]

You get the $1500 pot passers out for fancy parties.

 

[egellings]

A 1.5K say what now???

What on earth can you do to a pool cue to make it cost 1.5K?

You give it cache--association with well known pool players.

 

[JRS]

Hmmz... I see. I accepted the technology a fair amount of time ago although I've never heard on in person that I am aware of. Are you doing blind listening tests or sighted?

Blind? No way, this is pure old fashioned class bias.