Is REL being more 'musical' than SVS a myth, or is there some real science behind this?

[Chrise36]

Success doesn't equate with performance.
REL is successful because they have correctly address their market (High End Audio). It isn't because their products performance is superior to that of other companies, some of these are as successful as REL, SVS comes to mind. Thing and it is one of the tenets of ASR: Quality is defined by measurements. Repeatable measurements. In the world of subwoofers, it is a bit simplistic.: Linearity, extension and output. How linear is the frequency response, How low it goes and How loud it gets... Of course there is the THD but down low, our hearing is very tolerant: THD of 10% is not even perceived at 30 Hz.
All that to say. You can measure how good a subwoofer is. The "musical" notion doesn't apply to these, they apply to tunes or musicians of musical pieces and those are opinions, not measurable facts.
On this the consensus at ASR is correct the REL are not superior to the SVS (in general) in spite of the REL being (equivalent model for model), much more expensive. The REL may be prettier (subjective), better built (the jury is out on this) or to your liking (to each its own) but objectively superior to SVS? NO. A properly integrated REL may satisfy you in such case, so would an SVS for significantly less money... sometimes 1/4 of the cash outlay.

Let's take some examples from the manufacturers specs pages...
REL G25 their TOL, about $8,000 - 6 dB at 16 Hz....

SVS SB-16 Ultra that does 16 Hz at -3 dB... at $2,300.oo...If you need more output and lower distortion you could use 2 for $4600.00 or 3 for ... One will provide more output than the REL ... for 1/4 the price so ...
You see where we're going?


Peace.

Subwoofer is not just ultra low frequency output it is the whole package btw monoprice thx 15inch has 101.6 db output from 12.5 hz at 1500$ why would it not consider it better than SVS

 

[FrantzM]

Subwoofer is not just ultra low frequency output it is the whole package btw monoprice thx 15inch has 101.6 db output from 12.5 hz at 1500$ why would it not consider it better than SVS

Did I write it was only that?

 

[Inner Space]

The "musical" notion doesn't apply to these, they apply to tunes or musicians of musical pieces and those are opinions, not measurable facts.

Yeah, but I didn't say anything about "musical". Truth is, for music reproduction, a subwoofer is a fairly dumb tool, with a fairly easy job, so if a poster likes REL, with its easy connection and no latency, let him have it, because in the real world there's no practical difference between one make and any other. There's no need to overcomplicate a very simple proposition.

If folks like playing with software and so on, then sure, they can geek out to their heart's content. If they want 12Hz movie explosions ... I guess eventually they'll grow out of it.

Peace right back at ya ...

 

[Chrise36]

The "musical" label has probably been given to REL because of old reviews of the REL STUDIO: https://www.stereophile.com/subwoofers/1004rel/index.html
which btw used high quality drivers from VOLT UK

 

[Matt0305]

How many years after you bought it did it fail?

It failed about 3 months in, the new amp has been going strong for more than a year now. Manufacturing defects happen so I'm not overly concerned about it. If you search for any mass produced sub you can find amp issues. How SVS handled the situation is why I will probably purchase my next sub from them.

 

[Chrise36]

It failed about 3 months in, the new amp has been going strong for more than a year now. Manufacturing defects happen so I'm not overly concerned about it. If you search for any mass produced sub you can find amp issues. How SVS handled the situation is why I will probably purchase my next sub from them.

Great customer service vs great warranty is different especially for a high priced item. There are numerous reports about SVS for failing amps some users had 4 amps replaces others had both SVS subwoofers failed etc.Imho reliability and build quality and look is more important than ultimate output. If ultimate output is the goal i would go for a pro amp and diy sub.

 

[Chrispy]

OTOH I haven't seen any sort of regular complaints about SVS amps, more the occasional story, and sometimes they go beyond the stated time limits, too. I think there was one particular series of Bash amps they had some particular issues quite a few years back. I wouldn't call SVS particularly high priced, altho not quite as great a value as they have been in the past, altho their in home trials and customer service package in the US is hard to beat. Most sub brands don't make their own amps (only one I can think of is Funk offhand) so they're all subject to some issues there, especially when trying to keep pricing down. Don't disagree on the pro amp/diy sub, that's what I've done for several of mine.

Great customer service vs great warranty is different especially for a high priced item. There are numerous reports about SVS for failing amps some users had 4 amps replaces others had both SVS subwoofers failed etc.Imho reliability and build quality and look is more important than ultimate output. If ultimate output is the goal i would go for a pro amp and diy sub.

 

[afranta]

Time passes slowly in the world of "high end audio." My understanding is that REL established its reputation when subwoofers were difficult to integrate into two-channel systems. Their continued success has been to maintain this reputation long after the technological situation that produced it has changed ...

 

[A Surfer]

Hard for most 8" units to even be called subs in the first place. I see the Rel Tzero mkIII spec of an f6 of 37 hz.....quite different from the spec of an SB2000 (f3 of 19 hz)....let alone other performance differences that are likely.

Agreed, I can't imagine anybody expecting 8" drivers to be competitive on any level with a 12" appointed sub, all else being equal.

 

[JorisCeoen]

Holy noodles, I apparantly stirred up some dust on subwoofer conversation... While I didn't intend for the question to be explained in incredible detail, I eventually was able to understand most of the suggestions and explanations of subwoofer testing and the data. I guess I'm more wary to buy into REL (cause now, after reading it all, it does feel like perhaps the salesman was slightly trying to push me into a higher margin buy). I will see what he has to say when I return, and if he still tries to conveniently push me into REL without suggesting anything else (even after testing, cause we will be testing a number of subs with my KEF's) I'll take a step back. The fact that we will test other subs, however, I think is a good sign, as they don't want me to simply take their word for it.

The thing, however, which I got from some posts, is that yes the test will be conducted in a specialized listening room that has the top-notch isolation material and is completely tuned for the best musical experience you can possibly imagine. Our living room will be slightly smaller than the room, example here (the image POV is somewhat misleading, aka it's not as long as it seems, a bit smaller in reality):

I'm worried that if a sub sounds well here (with the stereo system) that it might sound worse at home. How do I tackle this?
I will post an update if I eventually buy a woofer (if at all).

 

[Mnyb]

Time passes slowly in the world of "high end audio." My understanding is that REL established its reputation when subwoofers were difficult to integrate into two-channel systems. Their continued success has been to maintain this reputation long after the technological situation that produced it has changed ...

Exactly, thier high level integration via speaker out in parallel with the mains , where the only game way back

Now you have options, but they still trie to maintain some mystique about that this a more musical way to do it.

Given how we hear stuff if your sub only goes to 35hz it will give a faster and drier impression even if that’s not how the record sounds and sometimes the room problems increase with deeper bass , practically demanding a DSP based solution to fix that ( my well integrated rhythmic sounds just as tight as my rel did in practice and is actually better integrated, the REL could be “heard” sometimes, I can not separate my rhythmic from the general bass sound ).

I view the smaller REL as some bass effect generator to have in parallel with some anemic bookshelf that can barely do 80 Hz

 

[Usher-denafrips]

I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle regarding REL / SVS and other subwoofers.
In what concerns the price vs what you get I believe SVS is hard to beat. You get a lot for your money.
If the room is not treated with low frequency absorption (at least a few panels deeper than 15 cm) then a REL or SVS (similar sized subwoofers) will sound similar even though they might measure differently.

The REL High level connection.
This I believe is superior to SVS low level connection: @Ingenieur explained it better than what I can.
Another thing to consider: amplifiers do not amplify the signal in perfect match between lo level RCA output and speaker output (it may be "close enough" but not perfect). For example: at 10% of volume you will have the power output at 10% and RCA output level at 10%. At 50% you will have the power output at 50% but the RCA output level at 52% or 49% or whatever ... it's not perfect.

Measurements:
This don't tell the whole story. Yes, you may be able to fine tune with DSP and have a linear frequency response but that is not actually what you can hear. You hear that response + speaker decay + room reverberations.
The speaker decay and room reverberations in turn may prevent you from not hearing other sounds within the music (like high frequency sounds) or not hear them properly.
Yes, a SVS subwoofer may get you lower frequencies (down to 15 Hz or lower) and a flatter response (when measured) but might also get you a slower response aka more speaker decay + a slight delay to main speakers output. This will generate a more pronounced bass feeling but less capacity of hearing the other sounds within music (hence audiophile try to avoid this kind of subwoofers or any subwoofer)

One example: imagine staying outside and someone is ringing a tiny bell a few meters in front of you. You can hear it clearly, you can say exactly from where the sound come etc. If a noisy truck passes a few meters behind you ... you will not hear the tiny bell any more. The bell is sending the sound wave towards you but you can not hear it while the truck passes. If you "measure" the sound you will record both the low frequencies generated by the track and the high frequency generated by the bell but you will not hear the bell.
A measurement is a good "tool" to integrate better the subwoofer, to understand it's capabilities but they don't show you the decay of the speaker and how will actually sound. That's why a wilson audio speaker will sound better than a cheap 1000 Euro speaker even though on paper they might measure very close. That's why you have tons of amplifiers with lot's of power and good THD yet some sound better than others. A digital amplifier beats a class A or AB amplifier by miles on any measurement yet it sounds worse.

Build
SVS SB-1000 Pro has a 12 Inch driver, 325 W amplifier, 20 Hz @ -3 db, weight: 11.9 Kg
REL R-328 has a 10 Inch driver, 350 W amplifier, 21 Hz @ -6 db, weight: 20.4 Kg

So the SVS get's you lower frequency, a bigger speaker so probably louder volumes yet it is much lighter --> I don't know if it's cabinet is good enough to sustain the tremendous forces that are generated because simply put: there is considerably less material used in the cabin and reinforcements.

My conclusion: Whether you go one way or the other one will need to treat the room first and the speak about what subwoofer is better. If the room is not treated then you can throw through the window both subwoofers. Both will sound boomy and will just shake your room and your ears but the music will be terrible.
Once you treat the room you will also hear the sound of each subwoofer and it's capabilities. At this point the room treatment will set you back a few thousands of dollars so paying a bit more for a "faster" subwoofer would not be such problematic any more.
Low frequency sounds are very hard to judge properly and evaluate: It's easy to hear / feel lower frequencies because they just shake you more. It's easy to hear a higher volume of bass because it will be louder. Details in bass, instruments sound ... these are harder to hear and first you need a proper room that let's you hear that.

My room is treated with about 2 cubic meters of absorption (70 cubic feet). I will add in the future another cubic meter of absorption.
Currently I have a very cheap subwoofer that I could not integrate with the main speakers before treating the room: it sounded much slower than the mains / muddy / boomy ... really bad. Now it sounds much better and I could integrate it. It still is a bad subwoofer just that it sounds 2 or 3 times better than initially did.

I plan to test in the near future the REL 328 (second hand) and SVS SB-1000 Pro (new) and get back here with my feedback.
I also have REW and UMIK 1 microphone so I can measure both.
I will keep the better sub (better for music).

 

[Chrispy]

I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle regarding REL / SVS and other subwoofers.
In what concerns the price vs what you get I believe SVS is hard to beat. You get a lot for your money.
If the room is not treated with low frequency absorption (at least a few panels deeper than 15 cm) then a REL or SVS (similar sized subwoofers) will sound similar even though they might measure differently.

The REL High level connection.
This I believe is superior to SVS low level connection: @Ingenieur explained it better than what I can.
Another thing to consider: amplifiers do not amplify the signal in perfect match between lo level RCA output and speaker output (it may be "close enough" but not perfect). For example: at 10% of volume you will have the power output at 10% and RCA output level at 10%. At 50% you will have the power output at 50% but the RCA output level at 52% or 49% or whatever ... it's not perfect.

Measurements:
This don't tell the whole story. Yes, you may be able to fine tune with DSP and have a linear frequency response but that is not actually what you can hear. You hear that response + speaker decay + room reverberations.
The speaker decay and room reverberations in turn may prevent you from not hearing other sounds within the music (like high frequency sounds) or not hear them properly.
Yes, a SVS subwoofer may get you lower frequencies (down to 15 Hz or lower) and a flatter response (when measured) but might also get you a slower response aka more speaker decay + a slight delay to main speakers output. This will generate a more pronounced bass feeling but less capacity of hearing the other sounds within music (hence audiophile try to avoid this kind of subwoofers or any subwoofer)

One example: imagine staying outside and someone is ringing a tiny bell a few meters in front of you. You can hear it clearly, you can say exactly from where the sound come etc. If a noisy truck passes a few meters behind you ... you will not hear the tiny bell any more. The bell is sending the sound wave towards you but you can not hear it while the truck passes. If you "measure" the sound you will record both the low frequencies generated by the track and the high frequency generated by the bell but you will not hear the bell.
A measurement is a good "tool" to integrate better the subwoofer, to understand it's capabilities but they don't show you the decay of the speaker and how will actually sound. That's why a wilson audio speaker will sound better than a cheap 1000 Euro speaker even though on paper they might measure very close. That's why you have tons of amplifiers with lot's of power and good THD yet some sound better than others. A digital amplifier beats a class A or AB amplifier by miles on any measurement yet it sounds worse.

Build
SVS SB-1000 Pro has a 12 Inch driver, 325 W amplifier, 20 Hz @ -3 db, weight: 11.9 Kg
REL R-328 has a 10 Inch driver, 350 W amplifier, 21 Hz @ -6 db, weight: 20.4 Kg

So the SVS get's you lower frequency, a bigger speaker so probably louder volumes yet it is much lighter --> I don't know if it's cabinet is good enough to sustain the tremendous forces that are generated because simply put: there is considerably less material used in the cabin and reinforcements.

My conclusion: Whether you go one way or the other one will need to treat the room first and the speak about what subwoofer is better. If the room is not treated then you can throw through the window both subwoofers. Both will sound boomy and will just shake your room and your ears but the music will be terrible.
Once you treat the room you will also hear the sound of each subwoofer and it's capabilities. At this point the room treatment will set you back a few thousands of dollars so paying a bit more for a "faster" subwoofer would not be such problematic any more.
Low frequency sounds are very hard to judge properly and evaluate: It's easy to hear / feel lower frequencies because they just shake you more. It's easy to hear a higher volume of bass because it will be louder. Details in bass, instruments sound ... these are harder to hear and first you need a proper room that let's you hear that.

My room is treated with about 2 cubic meters of absorption (70 cubic feet). I will add in the future another cubic meter of absorption.
Currently I have a very cheap subwoofer that I could not integrate with the main speakers before treating the room: it sounded much slower than the mains / muddy / boomy ... really bad. Now it sounds much better and I could integrate it. It still is a bad subwoofer just that it sounds 2 or 3 times better than initially did.

I plan to test in the near future the REL 328 (second hand) and SVS SB-1000 Pro (new) and get back here with my feedback.
I also have REW and UMIK 1 microphone so I can measure both.
I will keep the better sub (better for music).

The Rel is $1800, the SVS $600....SB2000 or 3000 might be more appropriate as competitors, altho both still come in well under the Rel price? Also, the Rel is a vented design (via PR).

 

[Usher-denafrips]

The Rel 328 is an old model that is not sold any more. I can buy it second hand at around 600-700. This is the reason I compare these 2.
In my system I don't need a very powerful subwoofer but a fast accurate one that matches my speakers. The SVS already has a bigger driver so the power output should exceed my needs --> I would choose a better SVS model not in terms of power output but accuracy preferably with a 10" driver.

Maybe the Rel Tx series would be a better comparation but I believe the R-328 is cheaper and still better than T9x.

So what I actually need is a very good subwoofer (not very powerfull) that sounds great in my system with my speakers without damaging the soundstage, mids and heights, and which integrates as good as possible. A part of the money I already invested in room treatment (which did wonders).

 

[goat76]

So what I actually need is a very good subwoofer (not very powerfull) that sounds great in my system with my speakers without damaging the soundstage, mids and heights, and which integrates as good as possible. A part of the money I already invested in room treatment (which did wonders).

I have had my REL T2 over 10 years now, it has integrated perfectly well with 3 different floor standing speakers in a way that it's only noticed/missed when it's turned off.

A well-integrated subwoofer will enhance the soundstage and better mids and heights, and better development as well.

And yes, room treatment is very important and probably the best upgrade you can do for the sound reproduction.

 

[TrevC]

The easiest and best way to integrate a sub properly is to use electronic correction. I use the Antimode 8033 on my BK XLS200 via a home made resistor attenuator wired to the back of the speakers. The sub was boomy before I bought the antimode. The only difference between a high level and low level connection is an attenuator. One isn't better than the other.

 

[Everett T]

The Rel 328 is an old model that is not sold any more. I can buy it second hand at around 600-700. This is the reason I compare these 2.
In my system I don't need a very powerful subwoofer but a fast accurate one that matches my speakers. The SVS already has a bigger driver so the power output should exceed my needs --> I would choose a better SVS model not in terms of power output but accuracy preferably with a 10" driver.

Maybe the Rel Tx series would be a better comparation but I believe the R-328 is cheaper and still better than T9x.

So what I actually need is a very good subwoofer (not very powerfull) that sounds great in my system with my speakers without damaging the soundstage, mids and heights, and which integrates as good as possible. A part of the money I already invested in room treatment (which did wonders).

What is powerful, spl? Also, "speed" is a myth, it's group delay and both sealed and ported, if designed correctly, will be equal. Integration into the system is the tedious part that many overlook. If your goal is a smooth response across multiple seats, multiple subs are usually a must.

 

[Usher-denafrips]

What is powerful, spl? Also, "speed" is a myth, it's group delay and both sealed and ported, if designed correctly, will be equal. Integration into the system is the tedious part that many overlook. If your goal is a smooth response across multiple seats, multiple subs are usually a must.

Yes, SPL
I don't need a smooth response across multiple seats but just on my listening position. The listening position is so "fixed" that if a move my head 2 cm left or right the scene changes --> In turn, every instrument is well positioned: On some melodies if the saxophonist or the trumpet singer is bending / leaning when singing I can hear that. Some instruments are positioned higher and some at a lower lever and I can hear that too (also compared with the voice height). ... of course, it all depends on the recording quality.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

"Musical" is a myth.

 

[Usher-denafrips]

Rel R328 arrived.
I installed it in several places (including in the corner as REL recommends). In the corner it sounds louder (and it measured lauder) but I prefer on a side close to the speaker and the wall. If placed in the corner some very low frequencies are too accentuated and they tend to cover the music which I don't like.
I use REW software with a mic calibrated from 20 Hz to 20 Khz to measure.

I tried to connect it via RCA (from my stereo amplifier preouts) and via the REL Neutrik cable (directly from the amplifier speaker outputs): Neutrik option is better.

My impressions so far: it is a good subwoofer and I like it. It was easy enough to integrate it and to make the music sound unitary. I adjusted the volume so the bass sound at the same level as the mids and heights (as possible). I don't know if it is "fast" or "musical" because I didn't compare it with SVS yet, but what I can say clearly is that the instruments sound natural and low frequencies are not "performing" like one bass note but you can hear different bass notes (hope I'm not too confusing with the explanation). All in all it is what I was looking for.