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Is REL being more 'musical' than SVS a myth, or is there some real science behind this?

Chrise36

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:facepalm: You're still listening to the salesperson.
A properly setup integrated sub will not have the issues you are concerned about.
It's painfully obvious your salesperson has some obvious bias against good internet direct brands. (no or low commission for them)
Check out Monolith, Ps audio or HSU, any of them will give you better performance to the dollar ratio than Rel.
Continue to research and please stop listening to the salesperson.
SVS has drawbacks too reliability build quality etc every product has its strenghts and weaknesses monolith has some offerings indeed
 
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A Surfer

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I ran a pair of REL T-Zeros to help out my mains. The rooms were small and the RELs certainly helped and I enjoyed what they provided. However, when I replaced them with a pair of SVS SB2000 Pro subs, well, lets just say I didn't miss the T-Zeros. That cannot be extrapolated to any other REL sub, but it certainly can be considered as a data point for why if all else is equal, going from 8" drivers to 12" drivers will yield audible improvements. Again, this makes the assumption that the subs are equally well integrated with the mains.
 

Chrispy

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I ran a pair of REL T-Zeros to help out my mains. The rooms were small and the RELs certainly helped and I enjoyed what they provided. However, when I replaced them with a pair of SVS SB2000 Pro subs, well, lets just say I didn't miss the T-Zeros. That cannot be extrapolated to any other REL sub, but it certainly can be considered as a data point for why if all else is equal, going from 8" drivers to 12" drivers will yield audible improvements. Again, this makes the assumption that the subs are equally well integrated with the mains.
Hard for most 8" units to even be called subs in the first place. I see the Rel Tzero mkIII spec of an f6 of 37 hz.....quite different from the spec of an SB2000 (f3 of 19 hz)....let alone other performance differences that are likely.
 

Colonel7

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I'll take the feedback into consideration! The primary goal of the subwoofer won't be to turn my room into a drilling machine, but rather to have a more accurate and even more 'feelable' bass. Rather want it to make the lower ends more rich and deep. The salesperson told me SVS is also amazing, but that those are more going for monstrosity (aka making your room a rumbleground) and could overpower the sound image to the detriment of the quality.

As I said earlier, since my speakers are literally in the HiFi store where they do the testing anyways, I'll ask them to test my speakers with a range of subwoofers, and then I'll be able to make an informed decision based on what works for me or what I'm looking for.

I get that straight-up numbers and test will show what is 'the best' on paper, but then again one of the biggest and most reputated audio engineers of my country once told me the best audio recordings and masters he ever heard were from a collegue he worked with that personally listened to the end result after tweaking a few things, rather than going by the pure math on paper that supposedly would tell to do tweak/not tweak some stuff differently (he basically combined the best of both). I'll follow my gut, or ears preferrably ;)
Sounds like you at least have your eyes wide open, so good luck with your listening session. Interested to hear your choice
 

morpheusX

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The primary goal of the subwoofer won't be to turn my room into a drilling machine, but rather to have a more accurate and even more 'feelable' bass. Rather want it to make the lower ends more rich and deep. The salesperson told me SVS is also amazing, but that those are more going for monstrosity (aka making your room a rumbleground) and could overpower the sound image to the detriment of the quality.

You can turn any quality "monstrosity" subwoofer to be as "fast", "accurate", "musical", "insert audiophool adjective", as a REL, by applying an HPF bellow 30Hz. And in doing this, it will have way less distortion than a tiny 8" overpriced, "fast", "accurate", "musical", "insert audiophool adjective" REL.

Please see data-bass.com myths ;)
 

whazzup

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I'll take the feedback into consideration! The primary goal of the subwoofer won't be to turn my room into a drilling machine, but rather to have a more accurate and even more 'feelable' bass. Rather want it to make the lower ends more rich and deep. The salesperson told me SVS is also amazing, but that those are more going for monstrosity (aka making your room a rumbleground) and could overpower the sound image to the detriment of the quality.

As I said earlier, since my speakers are literally in the HiFi store where they do the testing anyways, I'll ask them to test my speakers with a range of subwoofers, and then I'll be able to make an informed decision based on what works for me or what I'm looking for.

I get that straight-up numbers and test will show what is 'the best' on paper, but then again one of the biggest and most reputated audio engineers of my country once told me the best audio recordings and masters he ever heard were from a collegue he worked with that personally listened to the end result after tweaking a few things, rather than going by the pure math on paper that supposedly would tell to do tweak/not tweak some stuff differently (he basically combined the best of both). I'll follow my gut, or ears preferrably ;)

In a nutshell, our ears cannot be fully trusted because the environment changes how the sub sounds to our ears. The room walls (and other objects) are reflecting the frequencies like water ripples, while charts are generated in a way that factors away these room effects, so that you can compare the data between various subs.

My own experience when I started looking into measurements was that as a beginner, there's a disconnect when trying to link what we see on charts to what we hear. Took me some time to gain this understanding. One of the aids that helped was this video (made by @wwenze ). The tones are limited to the lower end and spaced out so that we can compare with just ears alone. In constrast, the typical 20 - 20kHz sweep is so fast because the microphone can pick it up (and it reduces the influence of the room) but it's generally useless for human ears (as a comparison tool).


Main things to look out for when running the sweep:
1. As tones get lower in frequency, are they getting consistently softer, relatively consistent in volume, or there are abrupt tones much louder or softer than the rest?

*If consistently softer in volume: the frequencies are rolling off. Could be a slow or steep descent.

*If consistently similar (or even louder) in volume: the frequencies are level or even increasing in amplitude. Generally the mark of a better sub, either in specs and/or better room-optimized. Note: human ears find it harder to pick up lower frequencies and need stronger amplitude at lower frequencies. Read up on loudness contours if you want to know more.

*If there're abrupt changes in volume between tones: Either the sub is tuned to emphasize certain frequency regions, or the room gain (as bass frequencies get bounced around in the room) is making certain frequencies too strong. Could be a problem with the sub itself, or the sub is not equalized/optimized for the room.


2. At your listening position, can your ears still pick up the lower tones, like 30Hz, or 20Hz? This tells you how strong a sub is at reproducing the lower tones relative to each other, in the same room.


3. Size of your room versus the showroom, placement and sound treatment. If the sizes are vastly different, room gain will be different. On the other hand, sound treatment can absorb / diffuse the frequencies so that even if they're rooms of similar size, the sub can sound ok in one room but very boomy in another.
It can also mean that a powerful, yet cheaper, sub can be overpowering in a smaller room (aka muddy/boomy/etc) while a less capable, but more expensive, sub actually performs 'better'. And people then may make the mistake of thinking that it's 'more musical'.



So audio engineers are not imbued with auditory magical powers. They just understand the above factors and know how to apply the objective information given in the charts to their given situations. Of course, the sales people can also use these to their advantage and present the higher margin product as the 'more suitable' product.

The above video allows you to compare the same sub in the showroom and in your own room. Ideally they will have a good return policy for you to do so. The next step is typically to perform eq with the sub in your own room to reduce the room modes. But there're also users who can't be bothered with the hassle, which is perfectly fine.
 
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Chrise36

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I ran a pair of REL T-Zeros to help out my mains. The rooms were small and the RELs certainly helped and I enjoyed what they provided. However, when I replaced them with a pair of SVS SB2000 Pro subs, well, lets just say I didn't miss the T-Zeros. That cannot be extrapolated to any other REL sub, but it certainly can be considered as a data point for why if all else is equal, going from 8" drivers to 12" drivers will yield audible improvements. Again, this makes the assumption that the subs are equally well integrated with the mains.

Havent heard about those issues but SVS does have a 5 year warranty
Warranty for speakers is easy for the company to claim that you did not handle the product as supposed.
 

Chrise36

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You can turn any quality "monstrosity" subwoofer to be as "fast", "accurate", "musical", "insert audiophool adjective", as a REL, by applying an HPF bellow 30Hz. And in doing this, it will have way less distortion than a tiny 8" overpriced, "fast", "accurate", "musical", "insert audiophool adjective" REL.

Please see data-bass.com myths ;)
Not sure about that.A high excursion high mass low sensitivy driver with low Qts is not the same as a low mass high sensibility high Qts driver.
 
F

freemansteve

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My 2c is that the idea of "musical" is not very relevant to subs....
I just want to hear a kick drum that has the impact of an actual drum, not some fuzzy, loud bass noise. Similarly with low E on a bass, which is 40Hz - does it sound real, or is it like like someone is playing the bass under a duvet at 2000 watts? Perhaps that is what is meant by 'musical'!

Some people need the 10-30Hz to be strong enough for say, earthquakes in movies to shake their room - which is fair enough - but not musical.

You will only know a good sub by playing your favourite tracks on them, not necessarily from specs or even recommendations.

Also, check out a nice bass guitar rig with 15/18" drivers and compare with your own hifi - a good starting point. You can do this in your local music instrument store.

Some good low tones to try on your hifi here (keyboards though) :

 
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Andysu

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svs and rel must be snake oil subs . a subwoofer is a subwoofer its the crossover that makes the subwoofer and i wouldn't buy a rel or svs tyey are overrated and overpriced
 

Waxx

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I'm not so up to date about the actual subwoofer offers on the market, but from my diy experience i know that sealed subs integrate the best in closed rooms, because the low roll of is slower and fits the room gain better. It also helps that the group delay is lower.

The SVS SB-2000 Pro is sealed and look a very good match for your demand, and it's not that expensive (cheaper than the REL). It goes low enough for all music but is not a earthquake jackhammer like many. I would build a sub myself, but if didn't it would probally the sub i have also (as i don't do hometheater neighter). I don't know if it's the best, but i do know it's a lot better than a REL, even for your purpose.
 

Chrise36

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Clear now you're just throwing stuff out there. SVS is known for its extraordinary service and is customer-centric.

"5-Year Unconditional Warranty​

SVS offers the industry's most comprehensive warranty on all our products. SVS warrants products to be free from defects in the workmanship for 5 years from date of purchase"
What do you understand from this will it cover you or not?
 

Chrise36

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Just to point i am not just throwing things out
 

Matt0305

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I have an SVS PC-2000 Pro. One Sunday morning it wouldn't power on, the amp had died. Much to my surprise thier support staff took my call on on a Sunday, and shipped a replacement amp directly to me by Wednesday with no hassle whatsoever. SVS's customer service is top notch from my personal experience.
 

Chrise36

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I have an SVS PC-2000 Pro. One Sunday morning it wouldn't power on, the amp had died. Much to my surprise thier support staff took my call on on a Sunday, and shipped a replacement amp directly to me by Wednesday with no hassle whatsoever. SVS's customer service is top notch from my personal experience.
How many years after you bought it did it fail?
 

Waxx

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those kind of things are typical for plate amps in sub i'm affraid, REL has the same kind of problems, and even top level plate amps like the Hypex Fusion have those kind of problems. The electronics are constant under heavy pressure and vibration when in use and electronics don't like that. So plate amps go down rather fast in general.


That is why i prefer subs with seperate electronic (amp + filter). Also, when the amp goes the sub can easely be used wiith a different amp.
 

FrantzM

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I'm just one voice among many, but a helicopter view of ASR reveals it's full of people who think they know better, and their favorite way of showing their radical discernment is to rag on long-term solid and successful brands like REL. My experience and observation is that REL are absolutely fine, and are likely to suit you perfectly.

Success doesn't equate with performance.
REL is successful because they have correctly address their market (High End Audio). It isn't because their products performance is superior to that of other companies, some of these are as successful as REL, SVS comes to mind. Thing and it is one of the tenets of ASR: Quality is defined by measurements. Repeatable measurements. In the world of subwoofers, it is a bit simplistic.: Linearity, extension and output. How linear is the frequency response, How low it goes and How loud it gets... Of course there is the THD but down low, our hearing is very tolerant: THD of 10% is not even perceived at 30 Hz.
All that to say. You can measure how good a subwoofer is. The "musical" notion doesn't apply to these, they apply to tunes or musicians of musical pieces and those are opinions, not measurable facts.
On this the consensus at ASR is correct the REL are not superior to the SVS (in general) in spite of the REL being (equivalent model for model), much more expensive. The REL may be prettier (subjective), better built (the jury is out on this) or to your liking (to each its own) but objectively superior to SVS? NO. A properly integrated REL may satisfy you in such case, so would an SVS for significantly less money... sometimes 1/4 of the cash outlay.

Let's take some examples from the manufacturers specs pages...
REL G25 their TOL, about $8,000 - 6 dB at 16 Hz....

SVS SB-16 Ultra that does 16 Hz at -3 dB... at $2,300.oo...If you need more output and lower distortion you could use 2 for $4600.00 or 3 for ... One will provide more output than the REL ... for 1/4 the price so ...
You see where we're going?


Peace.
 
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