Is REL being more 'musical' than SVS a myth, or is there some real science behind this?

[antcollinet]

Live unamplified music isn't 'musical' as a reproduction system can make it

Well, with all due respect...

(warning - possibly slightly disrespectful comment incoming)

That just sounds like nonsense to me.

 

[telephunke]

FWIW, I went in to a local dealer today who sells both REL and SVS. I said i was keen to see how big the 1000 and 2000 seemed in reality. I got a couple of cursory questions about my use case, and immediately got a hard sell on the RELs. I said i was looking at SVS because they go much deeper for similar price and got some lines about how I'd be surprised by the RELs and how the SVS were awfully boomy (why do they sell them then...?). The T9 and T7 were on the floor along with a PB-1000. But I mostly got a hard sell on the T5 and T zero despite saying I wanted a sub that will go low. I reckon the T7 and at T9 do look really good (completely subjective of course) but hardly that much better looking than any other black or white box. Their small size does look appealing when thinking about use in a small room, noting the PB is ported so much bigger. Anyway i concluded the dealer must just get way better margins or a commission or something because there was no just no conversation at all about what I really need or any willingness to talk it through. Was kind of depressing and reinforced why i generally dislike dealers of anything (hifi or any other consumable products). Always so hard to know who to trust.

 

[DSJR]

Well, with all due respect...

(warning - possibly slightly disrespectful comment incoming)

That just sounds like nonsense to me.

Have you ever owned a nice vintage valve amp from ARC and others, Naim Nait mk1, Sony TA5650, early A&R A60, Supex 900E pickup (or early Koetsu Red derivative), Tangent TM1 or RS4 speakers, Rega and Audio Alchemy dacs and others with tailored 'user friendly' performance and responses? All I suspect with measurement flaws (some definitely and severely) but all having a supremely 'musical/tuneful' - whatever - delivery which charms the pants off the listener, but which is far removed from 'reality' which can hurt (standing a few feet from an enthusiastically played drum kit, or brass instrument - ohm and woodwinds can have a 'reedy' quality and 'body of' timbre that many domestic sound systems smooth over too much). I still feel today that there's a difference between a 'good sound' truthful to the original as far as possible and a 'nice' one which is like a comfy pair of slippers (without the pipe in my case)

Now, in the days of a lot of posters here owning proper speakers and carefully adjusted subs and so on, my comments above may well be from the seemingly Jurassic era from which I come, but believe me, the entire UK audio scene was altered in the 80's by subjectivist preferred products such as those above and I rue the times back then, when properly designed gear with a more 'straight down the line' performance was discouraged and ultimately not even imported here as it 'sounded thin/lean' and didn't magnify/compress reverb tails and so on!!!

I swear I don't mean to be combative here, but if you've never done or had the 'tune dem' explained to you it's difficult for me to explain. I'm way past evangelising on this concept now, except to return to the thread by suggesting that some cheap subs thud and rumble tunelessly, where other better ones can reproduce a low pitch synth-bass note more as a tone rather than a tuneless drone

if the above is still verbal diarrhoea to you, then best I crawl back under my stone as I can't really explain it better let alone demonstrate it, even to a fellow UK person.

 

[antcollinet]

Have you ever owned a nice vintage valve amp from ARC and others, Naim Nait mk1, Sony TA5650, early A&R A60, Supex 900E pickup (or early Koetsu Red derivative), Tangent TM1 or RS4 speakers, Rega and Audio Alchemy dacs and others with tailored 'user friendly' performance and responses? All I suspect with measurement flaws (some definitely and severely) but all having a supremely 'musical/tuneful' - whatever - delivery which charms the pants off the listener, but which is far removed from 'reality' which can hurt (standing a few feet from an enthusiastically played drum kit, or brass instrument - ohm and woodwinds can have a 'reedy' quality and 'body of' timbre that many domestic sound systems smooth over too much). I still feel today that there's a difference between a 'good sound' truthful to the original as far as possible and a 'nice' one which is like a comfy pair of slippers (without the pipe in my case)

Now, in the days of a lot of posters here owning proper speakers and carefully adjusted subs and so on, my comments above may well be from the seemingly Jurassic era from which I come, but believe me, the entire UK audio scene was altered in the 80's by subjectivist preferred products such as those above and I rue the times back then, when properly designed gear with a more 'straight down the line' performance was discouraged and ultimately not even imported here as it 'sounded thin/lean' and didn't magnify/compress reverb tails and so on!!!

I swear I don't mean to be combative here, but if you've never done or had the 'tune dem' explained to you it's difficult for me to explain. I'm way past evangelising on this concept now, except to return to the thread by suggesting that some cheap subs thud and rumble tunelessly, where other better ones can reproduce a low pitch synth-bass note more as a tone rather than a tuneless drone

if the above is still verbal diarrhoea to you, then best I crawl back under my stone as I can't really explain it better let alone demonstrate it, even to a fellow UK person.

I think perhaps my problem is with the term "musical"

I've listened to (what I suspect to be) inaccurate gear that sounds amazing (First time at uni - a tube "wireless" (radio) I was amazed by the warmth and richness of the sound.

It is the word musical though, to describe gear that really turns me off. As far as I can tell, people use it in place of "I really like the sound"

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Don't know what a "musical" sub is... But there is some real science showing that some REL suck:

I don't think there's any right to put that thing in the category of subwoofers..

 

[DSJR]

I think perhaps my problem is with the term "musical"

I've listened to (what I suspect to be) inaccurate gear that sounds amazing (First time at uni - a tube "wireless" (radio) I was amazed by the warmth and richness of the sound.

It is the word musical though, to describe gear that really turns me off. As far as I can tell, people use it in place of "I really like the sound"

If you hum or even sing along with the music and songs (as I've been inclined to do all my life), you *may* find that some gear encourages this habit more than other gear. All subjective and depends on the person listening, so take it as face value. I once had to check out (for operation) two old amps, one a Pioneer 8100 and th eother a Uk made Ferrograph F307. The Pioneer for whatever reason gave a 2-D paper-flat kind of presentation which reminded me of many of their early to mid 70's amps (I have theories but absolutely no proof at all). The Ferrograph sounded absolutely delightful to me, instruments in the test music (a Pierre Moelen's Gong track I love) having some kind of 'shape' and 'perspective' to them. Sincere apologies for the arch off-topic subjectivism here and best we agree to disagree if my words still seem crap This album side is my definition of 'musical' as the melodies and harmonies easy to follow, even the drum-skin tuning here and there

The next track 'An American In England' finishes off the suite of tracks perfectly. Not sure the bass on this recording justifies a decent sum though.

 

[MattHooper]

I don't think there's any right to put that thing in the category of subwoofers..

I get the ire about the fact it doesn't go down to 20Hz. But it's an additional speaker, driver in a box, meant to add to a system to extend the bass response (which it will if your stereo speakers don't go very low). What other category would it go in?

 

[Chrispy]

I get the ire about the fact it doesn't go down to 20Hz. But it's an additional speaker, driver in a box, meant to add to a system to extend the bass response (which it will if your stereo speakers don't go very low). What other category would it go in?

Bass modules, woofers....

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I get the ire about the fact it doesn't go down to 20Hz. But it's an additional speaker, driver in a box, meant to add to a system to extend the bass response (which it will if your stereo speakers don't go very low). What other category would it go in?

I don't know. What kind of waste sorting system do your have where you live?

 

[Andysu]

rel musical , keep up ? its the frequencies that can't keep to where one maybe standing or seated

 

[Deleted member 48726]

rel musical , keep up ? its the frequencies that can't keep to where one maybe standing or seated

This is actually a very reasonable video from REL.

 

[dolynick]

I don't think there's any right to put that thing in the category of subwoofers..

First post and I'll probably regret signing up to post here, but I just finished going through this thread and noted the T/Zero discussion at the end here.

In its defense, this is my T/Zero MkIII in room with my Paragidm Mini Monitors v6s:
(Red with the T/Zero, Green without)

This is an untreated room with no room EQ so nodes are definitely at play here. That ~180Hz one is the only one that makes me think about going after it to correct though and it's surely due to having the rear ported bookshelves shoved into the corners for space reasons in this bedroom system.

The measurements were taken with REW and a umik with a calibration file. The reference volume was 74db at the "listening" position (or such as there is in this system). For a 9" cube, I am quite happy with what it is doing on the lower end here and, in my opinion, there is useful gained output down to ~25Hz here.

What's more, the sound and texture coming out this little driver in this use case is very pleasing to my ear. People have asked what "musical" means in terms of a sub. I agree it's subjective, but the attributes I hear from this little box certainly come to mind if I think on it. I am using the high level connection. I distictly remember noting it sounded better when I went to it from LFE - whatever the explanation for that is, it was certainly my experience as I wasn't really impressed on first setup with it on LFE as a drop in for the previous small sub.

It's surely a niche product and I'd say it's really intended for nearfield setups or small rooms where the room helps it on the low end more. On that front, I think its biggest fault is that it's priced close enough to the T/5x that paying the little bit more to step up is probably going to give you something with a little wider use case.

And yeah, I'd generally agree that REL is not competing on specs for price. That being said, I've have or have had REL T1s, Enegery EPS150, Kanto Sub8, SVS-SB1000s and a JL Fathom v12 in use in the various systems in the house and RELs have sounded good despite being outgunned in specs by several of the others. The T line is definitely not where you should be shopping for primary home theatre use either though.

Anyways, I thought a little first hand commentary might be of some use to others who might still be reading.

 

[TurtlePaul]

First post and I'll probably regret signing up to post here, but I just finished going through this thread and noted the T/Zero discussion at the end here.

In its defense, this is my T/Zero MkIII in room with my Paragidm Mini Monitors v6s:
(Red with the T/Zero, Green without)
View attachment 337152

This is an untreated room with no room EQ so nodes are definitely at play here. That ~180Hz one is the only one that makes me think about going after it to correct though and it's surely due to having the rear ported bookshelves shoved into the corners for space reasons in this bedroom system.

Welcome to ASR!

Your vertical scale is 120 dB. can you post this graph with the standard 45-50 dB vertical scale? The scale is making +15 dB at 190 hz look almost flat.

 

[dolynick]

Welcome to ASR!

Your vertical scale is 120 dB. can you post this graph with the standard 45-50 dB vertical scale? The scale is making +15 dB at 190 hz look almost flat.

Sorry the scale wasn't set to what you normally prefer. That node has nothing to do with the T/Zero though. I was sharing it mainly to demonstrate that in this particular use case, is re-enforcing bass to a noticeable degree far lower than its rating would suggest.

(Again Red is with the T/Zero, Green is without)

The crossover is set to about 65Hz on the T/Zero, using the ~10 clicks setting for crossover and volume REL recommends to start with. It's position about 3' down from the front corner on the right wall. It's also firing down into a carpetted floor. The room is 13'10" x 10'.

These Paradigms are not bass shy (for a bookshelf) on their own and are rated down to the ~40Hz range. That's almost as low as the T/Zero's -6db @37Hz specification. Yet the T/Zero is providing quite a bit of measured bass extension far below it's rating.

It's situational and room dependent to be sure, but it is definitely filling in tthe role of a sub in this use case - which is what I was responding to by sharing the data. A bigger sub with better specs would no doubt do as well or better but this little cube is making a decent account of itself in this system.

 

[TurtlePaul]

If you turn the crossover frequency up to 75-80 hz, does it fill that dip?

 

[dolynick]

If you turn the crossover frequency up to 75-80 hz, does it fill that dip?

I'll see about trying that later when I have some time.

It might smooth it out a bit. I suspect it's a bit of a null at the measuring position too though, as the bookshelves mimic that dip as well.

 

[Willem]

First post and I'll probably regret signing up to post here, but I just finished going through this thread and noted the T/Zero discussion at the end here.

In its defense, this is my T/Zero MkIII in room with my Paragidm Mini Monitors v6s:
(Red with the T/Zero, Green without)
View attachment 337152

This is an untreated room with no room EQ so nodes are definitely at play here. That ~180Hz one is the only one that makes me think about going after it to correct though and it's surely due to having the rear ported bookshelves shoved into the corners for space reasons in this bedroom system.

The measurements were taken with REW and a umik with a calibration file. The reference volume was 74db at the "listening" position (or such as there is in this system). For a 9" cube, I am quite happy with what it is doing on the lower end here and, in my opinion, there is useful gained output down to ~25Hz here.

What's more, the sound and texture coming out this little driver in this use case is very pleasing to my ear. People have asked what "musical" means in terms of a sub. I agree it's subjective, but the attributes I hear from this little box certainly come to mind if I think on it. I am using the high level connection. I distictly remember noting it sounded better when I went to it from LFE - whatever the explanation for that is, it was certainly my experience as I wasn't really impressed on first setup with it on LFE as a drop in for the previous small sub.

It's surely a niche product and I'd say it's really intended for nearfield setups or small rooms where the room helps it on the low end more. On that front, I think its biggest fault is that it's priced close enough to the T/5x that paying the little bit more to step up is probably going to give you something with a little wider use case.

And yeah, I'd generally agree that REL is not competing on specs for price. That being said, I've have or have had REL T1s, Enegery EPS150, Kanto Sub8, SVS-SB1000s and a JL Fathom v12 in use in the various systems in the house and RELs have sounded good despite being outgunned in specs by several of the others. The T line is definitely not where you should be shopping for primary home theatre use either though.

Anyways, I thought a little first hand commentary might be of some use to others who might still be reading.

For a while, when my main sub was being repaired, I used a single KEF Kube 8b with an 8 inch driver, and with a similarly specified response down to 34 Hz. Actual measured in room response in a corner of the (large) room was more or less flat down to 25 Hz. That was with room eq, which is something I would recommend in each and every case. A corner location provides a lot of reinforcement, but often also excites quite serious room modes - so dsp room eq is well advised (as is the use of multiple subs - I now use three).

 

[dolynick]

If you turn the crossover frequency up to 75-80 hz, does it fill that dip?

So bumping up the crossover a little to the 75-80 Hz range made a very minor shift in the 45 Hz peak towards the dip at 60 Hz but didn't really change much overall. I tried again a little higher and it shifted a little more but still not a whole lot.

On a whim, I just cranked the crossover all the way upt 120 Hz to see how much shift I could get:
(Blue is the measurement at 120 Hz crossover)

There has been a slight change in equipment used for this set of measurements as I swapped out the AVM 50 for a slightly newer AVM 50v (upgrades done in other systems leading to hand-me-down upgrades here too). The changes heading into 180-300 range are there at the original crossover point too and are either pre-amp related or my measuring point isn't quite the same.

 

[TurtlePaul]

On a whim, I just cranked the crossover all the way upt 120 Hz to see how much shift I could get:
(Blue is the measurement at 120 Hz crossover)

Nice! Does the blue sound like an improvement or too much bass?

 

[dolynick]

Nice! Does the blue sound like an improvement or too much bass?

I did a quick A/B and I did note an increase in bass with the crossover point cranked up.

I know it was actually a little bit more even, but subjectively it felt a bit heavy at the spot I was listening (not the measurement point). This is a bedroom/office and very little about how the speakers are positioned or the main listening positions are in relation is optimal. There isn't going to be a set of room EQ values or crossover points that is going to work the entire room so I'm not going to fuss too much over it.

Having said that, I do enjoy a healthy dose of room gain in my systems. This room is a bit much in the nodes, but it's tight and textured enough that I don't hate it. Maybe the dip in there is keeping it from feeling as amped up (or are hitting just the right ranges) as some of the peaks measure? The peak at 180 Hz has taught me that I actually prefer a little more in the presence region there - I EQ'd it out using REW calculations in JRiver DSP and found the sound to be too dull. This peak is higher than you'd want, but it actually doesn't bother me overly much either.

I have set it back to the original crossover as I like the balance better at the working position (vs the measurement position which is more central).

I've ordered some Lumina II Amators which should be coming sometime in January. They're front ported and I expect they're going to interact with the corners differently (better?) than the Paradigms. I know thay have more of a voice, so I'm curious to see if I like them or not (I took a bit of a leap of faith as I've alwasy wanted to try some Sonus Fabers). For now I'm generally happy (for the most part) with the way the current set up is working so I'm not going to muck around too much with changes right now.

What the T/Zero has done is make me think that there might be something to REL's idea of a smaller, lighter, faster woofer with a low latency high-level connection. I find I quite enjoy the tighter, articulate and textured base the Zero puts out. Enough so that I've decided to give a larger REL a shot in place of the aging Engergy EPS 150 in my living room system (which ARC says is struggling to even keep up with the mains curently). I'm running paired SB-1000s at the front corners of my theatre and a JL Fathom v12 at the rear and things sound pretty good down there under the music tuned profiles for listening. I'm very curious to see how the new REL compares in the other system. I expect it to be different, the question is will be if it's subjectively better and more pleasing or not.

I realize that that last statement may not sit all that well with some of the others commenting in this thread. I do find ASR a useful tool with its data-based measurements approach, but I'm also not entirely convinced that measurements always tell the full story either in terms of what we enjoy the most. So I'll try it and see. My backup choice would likely be a JL e110, or an SVS-SB2000 Pro as a less costly alternative.