Is Oppo HA-1 still relevant to be used as DAC?

[DonR]

It's not necessarily about power but sound quality. I upgraded to a vintage Yamaha ToP-ART amplifier similar to a Yamaha R-S700 and I noticed a difference in audio quality from my previous amplifier. I think you would notice a difference in audio quality with the Technics SU-G700M2.

The Denon AVRX4700H is only $2,100 for a 9 channels + a bunch of modern codecs; $233/channel. My AVR is $4,724.06 after inflation for 5+2 channels and only DD/DTS; ~675-783/channel. So I wouldn't expect the AVRX4700H to sound great because you're paying close to 1/3rd per channel. Similarly, the Denon PMA 600NE is 250/per channel so it makes sense that it'll sound better. Oblviously when you get into high-end amplifiers these metrics won't hold because you're paying a brand premium but under than ~5k price point and with Class AB you can pretty much assume that the more you spend, the better the quality will be, albeit with diminishing returns.

The Denon PMA 600NE has a direct mode to bypass the balance controls but if you want to use an external dac and pre amp then ideally you want either a pure power amplifier or an integrated amplifier with main input that bypasses the entire pre-amp section including the volume knob like the R-S700.

I quickly did some research on the Technics SU-G700M2. It's not the best fit for an audiophile setup with external DAC because it digitizes all analog inputs so you should use the integrated digital inputs without an external DAC. With that said, people say it sounds good.

You cannot judge an amplifier by its price... I am sorry but that is just ignorant.

 

[VintageFlanker]

The Denon AVRX4700H is only $2,100 for a 9 channels + a bunch of modern codecs; $233/channel. My AVR is $4,724.06 after inflation for 5+2 channels and only DD/DTS; ~675-783/channel. So I wouldn't expect the AVRX4700H to sound great because you're paying close to 1/3rd per channel. Similarly, the Denon PMA 600NE is 250/per channel so it makes sense that it'll sound better. Oblviously when you get into high-end amplifiers these metrics won't hold because you're paying a brand premium but under than ~5k price point and with Class AB you can pretty much assume that the more you spend, the better the quality will be

You can't be serious.

 

[Chrispy]

As far as the analysis by channel cost, once compared to production/distribution volume/scale that argument doesn't hold much.

 

[vladc77]

It's not necessarily about power but sound quality. I upgraded to a vintage Yamaha ToP-ART amplifier similar to a Yamaha R-S700 and I noticed a difference in audio quality from my previous amplifier. I think you would notice a difference in audio quality with the Technics SU-G700M2.

The Denon AVRX4700H is only $2,100 for a 9 channels + a bunch of modern codecs; $233/channel. My AVR is $4,724.06 after inflation for 5+2 channels and only DD/DTS; ~675-783/channel. So I wouldn't expect the AVRX4700H to sound great because you're paying close to 1/3rd per channel. Similarly, the Denon PMA 600NE is 250/per channel so it makes sense that it'll sound better. Oblviously when you get into high-end amplifiers these metrics won't hold because you're paying a brand premium but under than ~5k price point and with Class AB you can pretty much assume that the more you spend, the better the quality will be, albeit with diminishing returns.

The Denon PMA 600NE has a direct mode to bypass the balance controls but if you want to use an external dac and pre amp then ideally you want either a pure power amplifier or an integrated amplifier with main input that bypasses the entire pre-amp section including the volume knob like the R-S700.

I quickly did some research on the Technics SU-G700M2. It's not the best fit for an audiophile setup with external DAC because it digitizes all analog inputs so you should use the integrated digital inputs without an external DAC. With that said, people say it sounds good.

Ryeno, thank you for sharing your thoughts! Yes, I will need to do some more research on what amplifier to get since I am not looking for the most powerful but most musical one. At least, I should take out upgrading to a newest DAC from this equation and it is a great thing. Thank you all!

 

[Ryeno]

Obliviously seems more correct than obviously for this statement.

You cannot judge an amplifier by its price... I am sorry but that is just ignorant.

You can't be serious.

You guys are triggered but I stand by my logic. Better quality requires better parts. That's a fact. Better class AB power amplifiers require bigger transformers with more copper and bigger capacitors and probably more transistors that costs more money. So a good amplifier will necessarily be more expensive than a lesser amp, assuming we're comparing apples to apples (e,g, class AB to class AB). The wildcard is brand premium but at these lower price points (I used under 5,000 USD), more money will generally correlates with better sound. With regards to very inexpensive amplifies, e.g. under 1,000, most of that cost is going into parts. So in this case (Class AB, $2000 and less, AVR) it's very fair to simply divide the cost by each channel to get a rough metric of sound quality.

Spoiler: Yamaha Price Breakdown

I'll use the current Yamaha lineup, at current MSRP prices:
A-S701 is $800
A-S1200 is $3,000
A-S2200 is $4,500
A-S3200 is $8,000

The S701 uses Yamaha's old ToP-ART push-pull architecture.
The A1200 uses the new circlotron architecture.
The S2200 has fully balanced inputs.
The A3200 has better VU meters and better wires and connectors or more copper.

If you spent more on the S1200 compared to the S701, you will get better sound quality?Yes
Is it worth the price increase? No, diminishing returns.
If we look at the internals, is the A1200 built better than the S701? Yes.
Did it cost Yamaha 3x more to make it? Probably not so there is some brand premium but the amplifier is still better.
Same applies to the S2200.

 

[DonR]

You guys are triggered but I stand by my logic. Better quality requires better parts. That's a fact. Better class AB power amplifiers require bigger transformers with more copper and bigger capacitors and probably more transistors that costs more money. So a good amplifier will necessarily be more expensive than a lesser amp, assuming we're comparing apples to apples (e,g, class AB to class AB). The wildcard is brand premium but at these lower price points (I used under 5,000 USD), more money will generally correlates with better sound.

Again that is not a given. You are conflating a bigger power supply with better sound. The two are not the same.

 

[VintageFlanker]

So a good amplifier will necessarily be more expensive than a cheaper amp, assuming we're comparing apples to apples (e,g, class AB to class AB).

Sure. Except it also has to work the other way around to get your theory right...

- Good AB amplifiers are expensive.
- Yet, expensive AB amplifiers are not necessarily good. Far from it, actually.

 

[Chrispy]

You guys are triggered but I stand by my logic. Better quality requires better parts. That's a fact. Better class AB power amplifiers require bigger transformers with more copper and bigger capacitors and probably more transistors that costs more money. So a good amplifier will necessarily be more expensive than a lesser amp, assuming we're comparing apples to apples (e,g, class AB to class AB). The wildcard is brand premium but at these lower price points (I used under 5,000 USD), more money will generally correlates with better sound. With regards to very inexpensive amplifies, e.g. under 1,000, most of that cost is going into parts so in this case it's very fair to simply divide the cost by each channel to get a rough metric of sound quality.

Spoiler: Yamaha Price Breakdown

I'll use the current Yamaha lineup, at current MSRP prices:
A-S701 is $800
A-S1200 is $3,000
A-S2200 is $4,500
A-S3200 is $8,000

The S701 uses Yamaha's old ToP-ART push-pull architecture.
The A1200 uses the new circlotron architecture.
The S2200 has fully balanced inputs.
The A3200 has better VU meters and better wires and connectors or more copper.

If you spent more on the S1200 compared to the S701, you will get better sound quality?Yes
Is it worth the price increase? No, diminishing returns.
If we look at the internals, is the A1200 built better than the S701? Yes.
Did it cost Yamaha 3x more to make it? Probably not so there is some brand premium but the amplifier is still better.
Same applies to the S2200.

And about economy of scale? Better vu meters and better wires and connectors or more copper sure sounds like they're running out of marketing points at that point. The integrated amps often use avr parts too. If you hear things the more you spend, all the more power to ya!

 

[Ryeno]

Again that is not a given. You are conflating a bigger power supply with better sound. The two are not the same.

That's technically true but the original poster is using powering KLH Model 5 floorstanding speakers with a 10" woofer. So he likely needs decent wattage.

Also he mentioned that his less expensive 2 channel amplifier sounded better than his more expensive AVR and so I did a price per channel breakdown to explain why. I was comparing class AB to class AB and the same manufacture so that metric is fairly accurate in this situation. Likewise I compared his Denon AVR to my Yamaha AVR and in this comparison dividing cost per channels is again a pretty decent metric for performance.

So you guys need to clam down. I never said more expensive is ALWAYS better. But if you're comparing similar products or brands then you can use these types of metrics to get a good sense of performance.

 

[Chrispy]

That's technically true but the original poster is using powering KLH Model 5 floorstanding speakers with a 10" woofer. So he likely needs decent wattage.

Also he mentioned that his less expensive 2 channel amplifier sounded better than his more expensive AVR and so I did a price per channel breakdown to explain why. I was comparing class AB to class AB and the same manufacture so that metric is fairly accurate in this situation. Likewise I compared his Denon AVR to my Yamaha AVR and in this comparison dividing cost per channels is again a pretty decent metric for performance.

So you guys need to clam down. I never said more expensive is ALWAYS better. But if you're comparing similar products or brands then you can use these types of metrics to get a good sense of performance.

Your methods and conclusions still are mostly a joke afaic.

 

[DonR]

That's technically true but the original poster is using powering KLH Model 5 floorstanding speakers with a 10" woofer. So he likely needs decent wattage.

Also he mentioned that his less expensive 2 channel amplifier sounded better than his more expensive AVR and so I did a price per channel breakdown to explain why. I was comparing class AB to class AB and the same manufacture so that metric is fairly accurate in this situation. Likewise I compared his Denon AVR to my Yamaha AVR and in this comparison dividing cost per channels is again a pretty decent metric for performance.

So you guys need to clam down. I never said more expensive is ALWAYS better. But if you're comparing similar products or brands then you can use these types of metrics to get a good sense of performance.

We are calm. Your method of judging amplifier performance seems rather naive and lacking in an understanding of circuit theory.

 

[Ryeno]

Why is it that anytime a new guy (especially a subjectivist new guy) gets any sort of disagreement or criticism, the first thing he says is, "You need to calm down!"? Jim

Because you're internet bullies? Also 1k posts in less than 1 year, 4k in less than 3 years...I think it's fair to assume you guys lack good social skills.

To recap, you guys need to go back to your finance 101 course and learn basic performance metrics. More expensive amps generally do sound better, up until a certain price point, and evaluating the cost per channel is a good metric when it comes to low cost (under 5k, especially under 2k) amplifiers. The lower the cost, the less margin and components will make up a larger percentage of the cost.

 

[DonR]

I think it's fair to assume you guys lack good social skills.

haha... nice.

 

[617]

The worst DAC ASR has measured has a SINAD score of 55db. That means that all of the noise and distortion is 55db lower than the fundamental.

Imagine someone speaking to you from one meter away. Then they walk 512 meters, over half a kilometer away, and speak to you at the same tone. That is how quiet -55db is.

Now imagine your DAC is merely average and can resolve 16 bit audio. It has a SINAD of 96 db.

That is the difference between someone speaking to you from one meter away, and someone speaking to you from 65.5 kilometers away.

I think it's cool that ASR measures DACs but there's a reason why Amir doesn't do listening tests for them.

 

[JSmith]

Because you're internet bullies?

I think it's best you take a step back for a moment and try to achieve a moment of clarity, as this is not constructive.

More expensive amps generally do sound better

If you wish to learn more on this subject there is a plethora of information available here at ASR. I'd suggest starting with the review index to see price and performance is often not a correlating factor. Build quality and functionality though can be a different matter. Further, you may wish to read some pinned threads on technical topics and watch some videos Amir has made on various subjects.


JSmith

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Because you're internet bullies? Also 1k posts in less than 1 year, 4k in less than 3 years...I think it's fair to assume you guys lack good social skills.

To recap, you guys need to go back to your finance 101 course and learn basic performance metrics. More expensive amps generally do sound better, up until a certain price point, and evalatuing the cost per channel is a good metric when it comes to low cost (under 5k, especially under 2k) amplifiers.

In the first place, no competently designed amplifier operating within its power envelope "sounds better". All competent amps sound the same; like nothing. They simply amplify the electrical signal, no more and no less.

If two amplifiers sound different, then one (or both) are either broken or incompetently designed. It's possible that many manufacturers deliberately design amplifiers to sound "different", so as to cater to the agenda of different audio cults. I call that type of design "incompetent". As I said above, all competent amps sound the same; like nothing. Price has nothing intrinsic to do with it. Not only that, but I would classify YT reviews as unscientific efforts to accrue subscriptions, and therefore money.

Although higher power amps have a greater number of parts, weigh more, are larger, they therefore cost more on that basis alone. But it's possible for heavy, high power amps to be junk, too. So the price-ratio basis doesn't necessarily hold here, either.

Although I have not made a complete canvass of the market, I have generally found that companies with good reputations going back many years have good amps starting in the several hundreds of dollars, not thousands. If you read the amplifier reviews under the "review index" tab, you can compare many amplifiers of different makes and power output, and you will find very little correlation between price and performance.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the remark I made ..... I deleted it. I normally try to be civil, and I admit I could have couched the idea in a bit more diplomatic manner. But if you think that criticism and disagreement are "bullying", and that those people expressing viewpoints different than yours are people who need to "calm down", then you're practicing suppression. That's not a good social skill, either.

There are many very well-informed people on this forum who tell us of new ideas and teach us new things. They do it by disagreeing, by criticizing and expressing different viewpoints. That's part and parcel of learning.

Hope to see you around. Jim

 

[Chrispy]

Because you're internet bullies? Also 1k posts in less than 1 year, 4k in less than 3 years...I think it's fair to assume you guys lack good social skills.

To recap, you guys need to go back to your finance 101 course and learn basic performance metrics. More expensive amps generally do sound better, up until a certain price point, and evaluating the cost per channel is a good metric when it comes to low cost (under 5k, especially under 2k) amplifiers. The lower the cost, the less margin and components will make up a larger percentage of the cost.

That a $5k QSC amp?

 

[VintageFlanker]

I think it's fair to assume you guys lack good social skills.

Sure. That's probably why I happen to be... a social worker.

Internet...

To recap, you guys need to go back to your finance 101 course and learn basic performance metrics.

Ever heard about Dunning Kruger?

 

[Beave]

You guys are triggered but I stand by my logic. Better quality requires better parts. That's a fact. Better class AB power amplifiers require bigger transformers with more copper and bigger capacitors and probably more transistors that costs more money. So a good amplifier will necessarily be more expensive than a lesser amp, assuming we're comparing apples to apples (e,g, class AB to class AB). The wildcard is brand premium but at these lower price points (I used under 5,000 USD), more money will generally correlates with better sound. With regards to very inexpensive amplifies, e.g. under 1,000, most of that cost is going into parts. So in this case (Class AB, $2000 and less, AVR) it's very fair to simply divide the cost by each channel to get a rough metric of sound quality.

"Better quality requires better parts."

Define "better quality." Then define "better parts." Better how? Be specific.

"Better class AB power amplifiers require bigger transformers with more copper..."

Better, or just more powerful?

And one final question: How many of the expensive amps are produced and sold? Then how many of the less expensive amps and the AVRs are produced and sold? And related to that, explain to us how parts pricing varies with volume ordered.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Thank you for the tip! I am happy with the sound but of course there are better options too. I am using it in a small room and not sure I will need much more powerful amplifier. Nevertheless, I am considering getting Technics SU-G700M2 but not confident about that yet. In comparison, I have Denon AVRX4700H receiver but Denon PMA 600NE sounds way better with KLM Model 5.

Use the X4700 as you already have it. As stated before by others and backed by hard facts. No audibility/ sound improvements beyond. Posters here claiming otherwise have so far failed to produce any hard evidence to their unlikely claims.