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Is flat linear fullrange nearfield monitoring for 2500€ possible?

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Good evening,

having roughly 2500€ to spend, what (if any) solutions would you recommend for a near field monitoring setup in a 3.45m x 6.15m rectangular room (2.50m height) with 1m listening distance, sitting at ~1/4 of the room length under the following constrains, ordered by urgency:

1.) self noise inaudible at listening distance
2.) flat system frequency response to 30 Hz
3.) linear phase
4.) PEQ for room correction (may be done in software)

I'll note that I have Yamaha HS8s and HS7s which lack everything but 1.) and just returned an awesome pair of KS Digital C88 which hissed too much for my personal taste but otherwise ticked everything but 1.). On the subjective side, the C88 sounded way more powerful and precise in the low end and overall a lot clearer and more detailed without any other changes to equipment and room, so unfortunatly I do not like the Yamaha's anymore now.

Candidates:

To my knowledge there are no other studio monitors than the C88 in this price range that tick 2.) to 4.), so I will unfortunately probably need a 2.1 system. I thought of a KSD B88 subwoofer, since it looks like a bigger version of the C88 lows with a good price to wattage ratio compared to other studio subs, placed in the middle of a pair of two-ways. The B88 has fixed crossover at 80 Hz. I could for instance complement it with Neumann KH 120 (though I don't trust their own freq. response chart full heartedly until I see it somewhere else due to it being just so damn flat Check here) or Genelec 8040, though in both cases sacrificing 3.) and 4.). I do not like the Neumann subs as a main part of their functionality is tied to a proprietary control protocol iOS app.

Any hints or advice getting out of this predicament are greatly appreciated.

Best regards,
w
 
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detlev24

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Good evening,

I guess you are situated in Europe, since you mention an €-price? This does limit your options a lot - especially with regards to subwoofer(s); in case of expansion to a 2.1 system.

I am aware of one studio monitor, that would certainly tick 1.) and 2.) - where 2.) is limited by your required max. SPL at ~30 Hz [in-room]:

APS Klasik // *not* the new 2020 model
 
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q3cpma

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Deleted member 16502

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Hi @detlev25 and @q3cpma and thanks for your replies!

Yes, I'm in situated in Germany - what am I missung out because of that in your opinion? The APS Klasik non-2020 are unfortunately out of stock as far as I can tell, let alone at my dealers of choice. Which limits the possibility of testing without full commitment.

Thanks for the hint to the KH120A measurements, these look somewhat more believable, maybe there's some smoothing on the Neumann measurements? I kind of need the extra confirmation for German things that look too good ever since Volkswagen's fraud...

Here's an overlay of the on-axis responses of the KH120 (according to above third party measurements) and the Genelec 8040B and 8330A (since they use the same color for on and off-axis curves in the manual, the on-axis response is kind of hard to discern from the 15° curve in the 800-4k Hz region for the 8340 which I added as additional reference for a "next bigger" monitor).

freq.png

From this, I gather, that I will need a sub in any case and given this, the 8330A seems to be the better option, since it's flatter and allows for PEQ room correction. The more expensive 8340A seems not worth the upgrade from this graph alone, though it may be better in other regards (max. volume with lower THD and blindly guessing, without having an idea, better impulse accuracy)....

Now, does the 8330A have linear phase?

Best regards,
w
 

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q3cpma

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Hi @detlev25 and @q3cpma and thanks for your replies!

Yes, I'm in situated in Germany - what am I missung out because of that in your opinion? The APS Klasik non-2020 are unfortunately out of stock as far as I can tell, let alone at my dealers of choice. Which limits the possibility of testing without full commitment.

Thanks for the hint to the KH120A measurements, these look somewhat more believable, maybe there's some smoothing on the Neumann measurements? I kind of need the extra confirmation for German things that look too good ever since Volkswagen's fraud...

Here's an overlay of the on-axis responses of the KH120 (according to above third party measurements) and the Genelec 8040B and 8330A (since they use the same color for on and off-axis curves in the manual, the on-axis response is kind of hard to discern from the 15° curve in the 800-4k Hz region for the 8340 which I added as additional reference for a "next bigger" monitor).

View attachment 66574
From this, I gather, that I will need a sub in any case and given this, the 8330A seems to be the better option, since it's flatter and allows for PEQ room correction. The more expensive 8340A seems not worth the upgrade from this graph alone, though it may be better in other regards (max. volume with lower THD and blindly guessing, without having an idea, better impulse accuracy)....

Now, does the 8330A have linear phase?

Best regards,
w
You should ask Genelec if their DSP models do some phase correction or not. You should know that it's mostly placebo and not very audible, though.
 
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Deleted member 16502

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Try
KEF R3
REF Reference

KEF R3 are passive, and leave no more than 900 € for a subwoofer plus amp, plus don't have phase correction. Can you recommend a complete chain as the KEF R3 alone certainly do not go down to 30 Hz? I also already own a passive "HiFi" System (Kudos X2 & Consonance A100) I'm happy enough with for listening purposes and need this new system for production. KEF Reference is way out budget!

Ok, maybe @Ilkka Rissanen knows if they do, I'll send an E-Mail tomorrow. Can you recommend any research on it being mostly placebo, as it seems quite measureable to me and apart from delay and cost I see no downside of FIR filters in an already digital speaker.
 
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Btw. I uploaded the plot from the raw data points I picked from the manuals and the mentioned review and figured I'd be better to apply cubic Hermite interpolation instead of piecewise linear for the curves to look more like the original ones...

freq_smooth.png


Edit: Took out picture due to wrong labeling
Edit: Added fixed plot.
 
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detlev24

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[...] Yes, I'm in situated in Germany - what am I missung out because of that in your opinion? [...]
Especially with regards to subwoofers, the choice is much bigger in the US! One reason might be that they are crazy for their home theatres, in the USA. :cool:

For instance, I am not aware of any relatively inexpensive subwoofer on the EU market, which provides a similar performance to the Rythmik Audio L12 + such a big variety of manual controls. // Maybe one exception lies with BK Electronics in the UK; but unfortunately, no measurements of the new models are available (yet). The previous subwoofers measured well above their "cheap" price, though, compared to the competition; which does not provide manufacturer distribution exclusively and thus, further costs add up.

I had a quick look at the operating manuals of the 8330A vs. the 8340A. The crossover frequency, bass/treble, is relatively high in both cases: 2.9 kHz vs. 2.6 kHz. Certain advantages of a 6.5" cone [8340A], instead of a 5" cone [8330A] to cover this entire range - e.g., with regards to clarity and minimal ringing - may be expected.

Schönen Gruß!


PS: Does the red curve on your 2nd graph represent the Neumann, or the Genelec loudspeaker?
 
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Indeed, we don't have these as much where I live, though there's plenty other hifi and high end stuff available...

I'll fix the graph as soon as I'm back home, the labeling went wrong cause I did not uncomment the Neumann legend entry from my gnuplot file. Apologies!

Edit: It's fixed now and I added the KH 120 measurements from Neumann too.
 
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Stretchneck

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KEF R3 are passive, and leave no more than 900 € for a subwoofer plus amp, plus don't have phase correction. Can you recommend a complete chain as the KEF R3 alone certainly do not go down to 30 Hz? I also already own a passive "HiFi" System (Kudos X2 & Consonance A100) I'm happy enough with for listening purposes and need this new system for production. KEF Reference is way out budget!

Ok, maybe @Ilkka Rissanen knows if they do, I'll send an E-Mail tomorrow. Can you recommend any research on it being mostly placebo, as it seems quite measureable to me and apart from delay and cost I see no downside of FIR filters in an already digital speaker.

Depends if you go second hand or not, and we're also talking about in room response as well (room gain). Also good article attached for you... good hunting.
 

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DJBonoBobo

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Why not KH80 + KH750 DSP? Checks all your marks but goes flat to 18 Hz instead of 30...

Yes, you need an iPad to use the PEQ, but you have the option at least. Also, if you want to buy a used iPad you would still be inside your 2500 EUR limit. (1300 for the sub + 850 for 2x KH80 + up to 350 left for an iPad). Should be a great option for 1m distance.

Review in German: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/studiomonitore-neumann-kh-80-dsp-die-messdaten/
 
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Depends if you go second hand or not, and we're also talking about in room response as well (room gain). Also good article attached for you... good hunting.

I generally would buy second hand, but then I'd need to find a store to prelisten to that exact model since returning usually is no option for second hand sells. In case you are referring to the degradation of linearity due to the listening room, I'm aware of it, but it's out of scope of my current buying decision apart from enforcing point 4. on the requirement list.

Thanks for the article, I've have ordered Dr. Toole's book. It's convincing from an emperical point of view that zero phase is not of first order importance, though I'm not convinced it should not be done in a digital speaker simply because it's mostly covered up due to other sources of error in real world when the only actual downsides I know of are more effort and signal delay.

Why not KH80 + KH750 DSP? Checks all your marks but goes flat to 18 Hz instead of 30...

I am considering that too, though with the KH120's then. Main concern is that the KH750 seems a bit small compared to the equally priced KSD B88 which offers double woofer and wattage and also FIR filtering. I actually have an iPad, but I think Neumann will drop support sooner than I'd get rid of the KH750 and I'll be left with a product only partially working. At least with the Genelec solution, you can rely on the control software being available as long as you can maintain the compatible software environment while with iOS only, you rely on Apple and Neumann for that.
 

waynel

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Good evening,

having roughly 2500€ to spend, what (if any) solutions would you recommend for a near field monitoring setup in a 3.45m x 6.15m rectangular room (2.50m height) with 1m listening distance, sitting at ~1/4 of the room length under the following constrains, ordered by urgency:

1.) self noise inaudible at listening distance
2.) flat system frequency response to 30 Hz
3.) linear phase
4.) PEQ for room correction (may be done in software)

I'll note that I have Yamaha HS8s and HS7s which lack everything but 1.) and just returned an awesome pair of KS Digital C88 which hissed too much for my personal taste but otherwise ticked everything but 1.). On the subjective side, the C88 sounded way more powerful and precise in the low end and overall a lot clearer and more detailed without any other changes to equipment and room, so unfortunatly I do not like the Yamaha's anymore now.

Candidates:

To my knowledge there are no other studio monitors than the C88 in this price range that tick 2.) to 4.), so I will unfortunately probably need a 2.1 system. I thought of a KSD B88 subwoofer, since it looks like a bigger version of the C88 lows with a good price to wattage ratio compared to other studio subs, placed in the middle of a pair of two-ways. The B88 has fixed crossover at 80 Hz. I could for instance complement it with Neumann KH 120 (though I don't trust their own freq. response chart full heartedly until I see it somewhere else due to it being just so damn flat) or Genelec 8040, though in both cases sacrificing 3.) and 4.). I do not like the Neumann subs as a main part of their functionality is tied to a proprietary control protocol iOS app.

Any hints or advice getting out of this predicament are greatly appreciated.

Best regards,
w
Why constraint 3) linear phase?
 

q3cpma

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Genelec missed out on phase correction on the 83x0 series according to this review: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/genelec-8340a-8350a-sam
Ward's reviews are always full of that mystical phase thing, but no ABX to prove anything. Basically, all ported monitors, no matter how good, have a chance to get this remark.
These specific Genelec models specify group delay in their manual and it is well under known audibility thresholds:
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/human-hearing-phase-distortion-audibility-part-2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay#Group_delay_in_audio
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19404
2020-06-02_20:21:44.png


As always, reviews without measurements are as useful as a broken clock.
 
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You make excellent points, I'll read up on what you provided @q3cpma. I wonder why Genelec don't provide that chart for the 8330 :( . 8340 or 8350 is out of budget with a sub.

the 8350 has phase correction

Really? They sure hid it well then.
 

ernestcarl

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Hi @detlev25 and @q3cpma and thanks for your replies!

Yes, I'm in situated in Germany - what am I missung out because of that in your opinion? The APS Klasik non-2020 are unfortunately out of stock as far as I can tell, let alone at my dealers of choice. Which limits the possibility of testing without full commitment.

Thanks for the hint to the KH120A measurements, these look somewhat more believable, maybe there's some smoothing on the Neumann measurements? I kind of need the extra confirmation for German things that look too good ever since Volkswagen's fraud...

Here's an overlay of the on-axis responses of the KH120 (according to above third party measurements) and the Genelec 8040B and 8330A (since they use the same color for on and off-axis curves in the manual, the on-axis response is kind of hard to discern from the 15° curve in the 800-4k Hz region for the 8340 which I added as additional reference for a "next bigger" monitor).

View attachment 66574
From this, I gather, that I will need a sub in any case and given this, the 8330A seems to be the better option, since it's flatter and allows for PEQ room correction. The more expensive 8340A seems not worth the upgrade from this graph alone, though it may be better in other regards (max. volume with lower THD and blindly guessing, without having an idea, better impulse accuracy)....

Now, does the 8330A have linear phase?

Best regards,
w

I’d be happy with any of these monitors. The KH120 looks quite horrifying the way this has been scaled maximally though.

Budget-wise, I’d pick whatever I can get for cheaper. A Rythmik L12 sub (just a single one for a start) + the Genelec 8330 *8030c or Neumann KH120 would be neutral enough for me. I have no need for either brand’s proprietary DSP solution.
 
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