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Is Akg k702 really a power hungry headphone ??

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#61
At the moment I'm a bit on the fence about that particular EQ I created that you're talking about at following link (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../what-headphone-s-do-you-own.4285/post-540609).
I have modified the curve some myself, but I still think the curve is a very good starting point. Every persons hearing with headphones are a little bit different, and personal taste differ also, so the perfect curve for everyone do probably not exist. But i general terms there are curves that improve things, and that i good enough as a start.
 

Robbo99999

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#62
I have modified the curve some myself, but I still think the curve is a very good starting point. Every persons hearing with headphones are a little bit different, and personal taste differ also, so the perfect curve for everyone do probably not exist. But i general terms there are curves that improve things, and that i good enough as a start.
Yes, the EQ curves I did definitely do improve the headphone from the stock K702 without EQ.....I suppose I'm trying to EQ them to their maximum optimum for myself, hence my resolution to send them to Oratory who in my opinion is the gold standard at the moment for creating measurements on which EQ can be based (I also like his own EQ's he does to his measurements)...seeing as they're my favourite headphone for the soundstage & general high resolution potential then I'm trying to go the extra mile with them to get them spot on tuned.
 

samwell7

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#63
At the moment I'm a bit on the fence about that particular EQ I created that you're talking about at following link (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../what-headphone-s-do-you-own.4285/post-540609). Reason being I bought some new K702 couple of weeks ago and that EQ is on the harsh side for the new pads, I think it's a lot more acceptable on old pads (my old K702). If you have a new K702 I'd probably recommend you try the EQ I did based on Crinicle's measurements which can be found here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...amir-to-measure-next.17117/page-2#post-556240
Note that in that post I linked above I say that it sounded terrible, that's because it was on old pads, but I also think my previous EQ (the one at the first link in this post I'm writing) is a tad heavy from 500Hz to just north of 1kHz, I don't think I should have boosted that dip, possibly a measurement anomaly...so I think I had brain burn-in to that EQ that was not quite accurate, hence me initially not liking the EQ based on Crinicle's measurements due to the obvious tonal differences. You could try either of those EQ's and see which you like best, the first one likely to be better with old pads, and possibly the second one with new pads. I'm gonna be sending my K702 to Oratory for measurement once Thomann have K702 pads back in stock, so that Oratory can measure old pads vs new pads on the K702.....I've been speaking with him on reddit, and he's kindly agreed to do that.....I think he's just really keen on measuring as many headphones as possible to grow his database, it's a great service to the headphone community.
That's awesome! Please link to Oratory's measurements once they are published.
 

Robbo99999

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#65
That's awesome! Please link to Oratory's measurements once they are published.
Yep, will do, will be a couple of months or more from now I reckon as Thomann won't have the pads for another month or so, then the pads have to arrive, then me sending them off and then the time associated with Oratory measuring & publishing.
 

samwell7

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#66
Yep, will do, will be a couple of months or more from now I reckon as Thomann won't have the pads for another month or so, then the pads have to arrive, then me sending them off and then the time associated with Oratory measuring & publishing.
That's all good I'm sure it'll be worth the wait!

The K702s seem a bit smoother today, haven't got around to playing with EQ yet, not sure if I'll end up EQing them, I'll probably do it just to see what the Harman curve sounds like (and to see if I like it)
 

Robbo99999

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#67
That's all good I'm sure it'll be worth the wait!

The K702s seem a bit smoother today, haven't got around to playing with EQ yet, not sure if I'll end up EQing them, I'll probably do it just to see what the Harman curve sounds like (and to see if I like it)
Yeah, definitely, it's easy to try on PC using EqualiserAPO either on it's own or with the PEACE extension. I'm not totally totally happy with the headphone measurements so far for the K702 (hence me sending them to Oratory), so I wouldn't really base 100% whether you like or dislike the Harman Curve based on listening to the EQ's I did for the K702, but it is certainly a lot closer to Harman with those EQ's than without.
 
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#68
Just to go back to the original topic, my new (made in China) K702s arrived today.
They sound similar, I think the lack of bumps on the headband have made them slightly less comfortable and they are easier to drive than I remember!
I hated the bumps under the headband on all the AKGs. A friend lent me an Austrian pair of K702 (that had bumps) that he had bought in Austria (iirc he said over 300 Euro in 2012, so close to US$400), and I thought they sounded very good (maybe too good for the digital I had at that time) and I should start saving, expecting to eventually grab a used pair if they ever dipped close to $200. But then production moved to China, and prices dropped to under $150 on Amazon. And my Chinese pair has no bumps, and I feel like these will be the only open back headphones I'll need. I also have some closed-back K550 that need tweeking, but that's another story.
 

samwell7

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#69
Yeah, definitely, it's easy to try on PC using EqualiserAPO either on it's own or with the PEACE extension. I'm not totally totally happy with the headphone measurements so far for the K702 (hence me sending them to Oratory), so I wouldn't really base 100% whether you like or dislike the Harman Curve based on listening to the EQ's I did for the K702, but it is certainly a lot closer to Harman with those EQ's than without.
Yeah it shouldn't be too difficult, I've got EqualiserAPO and Peace both installed from a previous project (Edifier R1700BT and S1000Mk2s, both active speakers).

I remember from my old K702s that they responded well to EQ, pretty sure I was using the native EQ in Winamp back then.

I'll give it a crack anyway and see how I like it, I came across one of your posts earlier today with the settings and your findings (might've been from the K702 anniversary edition frequency response curves)
 

Robbo99999

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#70
Yeah it shouldn't be too difficult, I've got EqualiserAPO and Peace both installed from a previous project (Edifier R1700BT and S1000Mk2s, both active speakers).

I remember from my old K702s that they responded well to EQ, pretty sure I was using the native EQ in Winamp back then.

I'll give it a crack anyway and see how I like it, I came across one of your posts earlier today with the settings and your findings (might've been from the K702 anniversary edition frequency response curves)
Ah, I think that was the first ever thread I created when I first joined here, so don't use that EQ as that was my first ever EQ of the K702 when I was a newbie to it all, instead use one of the ones from the links in the following post: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ly-a-power-hungry-headphone.15150/post-634399
 

samwell7

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#71

Robbo99999

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@samwell7 & @Mulder , I developed another EQ for my K702, for my new K702 with the new pads, and I think it's an improvement, so try it if you like. It's based on Crinacle's measurements, but the main difference is that I chose only one of his measurements - he measures each headphone 3 times, so that's 6 individual measurements because 2 channels (2x3=6). Yep, so I chose to use an average of his right channel measurements as they were all very closely grouped without outliers, the right channel also most significantly was the one with the smallest 2kHz peak, because I identified through my listening of my original Crinacle EQ (which was based on an average of all the measurements) that my EQ was taking out too much energy on this 2kHz peak. One of his measurements was a bit of an outlier on the 2kHz peak which was skewing the average I had been using before, which was from the left channel. This average of the right channel I'm choosing also had the highest 6-9kHz peak which was a similarity with measurements from other sources, and peaking in this area is pretty darn harsh....so I wanted to use this measurement to EQ that down. One other similarity with other measurements from other sources, the right channel average I chose was also exhibiting the largest 500Hz-1kHz dip, and through some more recent EQ testing I've found the K702 does indeed need a small boost in this area to help deliver impact (previously I had thought it a measurement anomaly). Here's the link to the Crinacle graph tool where I got the K702 measurement, I chose the right channel measurement for the reasons I mentioned:
https://crinacle.com/graphs/headphones/graphtool/
and here's a pic of the measurement I used:
K702 Crinicle best measurement.jpg

And here's my EQ based on the above measurement:
Crinicle K702 best measurement EQ (clear bass).jpg

I did some listening tests on the tracks I use to tweak & compare EQ's, and used those tracks to tweak the bass. I found it interesting that the rolled off bass boost I applied delivered overall more bass impact than leaving an equivalent Low Shelf bass boost that extends further into the bass - I believe that's because the Low Shelf muddies the bass, as well as not letting the rest of the headphone shine as brightly......to me the EQ I did above is the optimum bass for this headphone when attempting to follow the contour of the Harman Curve....I don't think the K702 can benefit by boosting the bass any lower into the frequency range than that.

I'm pretty sure I'll still be sending in my K702 to Oratory, but this is an improvement whilst I'm (we're) waiting....goes to show that you shouldn't blindly use an average curve as a basis for EQ (or at least exclude the measurements that are non-representative before averaging, which is Oratory's approach, and also what I have done here)
 
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samwell7

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#73
@samwell7 & @Mulder , I developed another EQ for my K702, for my new K702 with the new pads, and I think it's an improvement, so try it if you like. It's based on Crinacle's measurements, but the main difference is that I chose only one of his measurements - he measures each headphone 3 times, so that's 6 individual measurements because 2 channels (2x3=6). Yep, so I chose to use an average of his right channel measurements as they were all very closely grouped without outliers, the right channel also most significantly was the one with the smallest 2kHz peak, because I identified through my listening of my original Crinacle EQ (which was based on an average of all the measurements) that my EQ was taking out too much energy on this 2kHz peak. One of his measurements was a bit of an outlier on the 2kHz peak which was skewing the average I had been using before, which was from the left channel. This average of the right channel I'm choosing also had the highest 6-9kHz peak which was a similarity with measurements from other sources, and peaking in this area is pretty darn harsh....so I wanted to use this measurement to EQ that down. One other similarity with other measurements from other sources, the right channel average I chose was also exhibiting the largest 500Hz-1kHz dip, and through some more recent EQ testing I've found the K702 does indeed need a small boost in this area to help deliver impact (previously I had thought it a measurement anomaly). Here's the link to the Crinacle graph tool where I got the K702 measurement, I chose the right channel measurement for the reasons I mentioned:
https://crinacle.com/graphs/headphones/graphtool/
and here's a pic of the measurement I used:
View attachment 106275

And here's my EQ based on the above measurement:
View attachment 106276
I did some listening tests on the tracks I use to tweak & compare EQ's, and used those tracks to tweak the bass. I found it interesting that the rolled off bass boost I applied delivered overall more bass impact than leaving an equivalent Low Shelf bass boost that extends further into the bass - I believe that's because the Low Shelf muddies the bass, as well as not letting the rest of the headphone shine as brightly......to me the EQ I did above is the optimum bass for this headphone when attempting to follow the contour of the Harman Curve....I don't think the K702 can benefit by boosting the bass any lower than that.

I'm pretty sure I'll still be sending in my K702 to Oratory, but this is an improvement whilst I'm (we're) waiting....goes to show that you shouldn't blindly use an average curve as a basis for EQ (or at least exclude the measurements that are non-representative before averaging, which is Oratory's approach, and also what I have done here)
Thank you for this! Looks good, I won't be able to listen until Monday but I'll give it a try and report back.
It makes sense that leaving some of the sub bass out would make it sound better, it's pretty commonly done with smaller speakers to stop distortion/mud from a speaker trying to do something that it can't do.

Also, one thing that may be worth trying would be buying a set of K712/Kxx/k702 anniversary edition pads, I bought some anniversary pads when I had my original K702 and it added a fair bit of bass and body while still sounding like a K702
 

Robbo99999

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#74
Thank you for this! Looks good, I won't be able to listen until Monday but I'll give it a try and report back.
It makes sense that leaving some of the sub bass out would make it sound better, it's pretty commonly done with smaller speakers to stop distortion/mud from a speaker trying to do something that it can't do.

Also, one thing that may be worth trying would be buying a set of K712/Kxx/k702 anniversary edition pads, I bought some anniversary pads when I had my original K702 and it added a fair bit of bass and body while still sounding like a K702
Yeah, let me know if you think the EQ is an improvement, and any points you think about it. I gotta say I'm pretty sceptical about changing the pads on the K702 to a different type.....because I think the soundstage is so great with this headphone (unique out of the headphones I've tried, not tried HD800s), then I don't want to do anything that is gonna muck up the soundstage tuning of this headphone. I'm alright EQ'ing the K702, as that can enhance the soundstage, but the hardware mod of different pads.....I just don't want to muck up the secret sauce!

Another significant point about changing the pads, it's bound to change the frequency response, and my EQ process is based around tweaking around the headphone measurement.....if you change the pads you're in the dark baby!
 
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#75
Yeah, let me know if you think the EQ is an improvement, and any points you think about it. I gotta say I'm pretty sceptical about changing the pads on the K702 to a different type.....because I think the soundstage is so great with this headphone (unique out of the headphones I've tried, not tried HD800s), then I don't want to do anything that is gonna muck up the soundstage tuning of this headphone. I'm alright EQ'ing the K702, as that can enhance the soundstage, but the hardware mod of different pads.....I just don't want to muck up the secret sauce!

Another significant point about changing the pads, it's bound to change the frequency response, and my EQ process is based around tweaking around the headphone measurement.....if you change the pads you're in the dark baby!
Yeah for sure I'll let you know my thoughts once I get it up and running!

Yep I understand where you're coming from regarding the pads, I sort of felt like that when I EQ'd it last time, almost like it took away a bit of what made it special in the first place.

Either way I'll give it a crack, I'm pretty happy with the standard tuning of the K702 to be honest.

I ordered a set of K240s before I found out how cheap the K702s now are, the K240s finally arrived and I compared the two (no measurements).
If I didn't have the K702 I would've been happy with the K240, it's pretty good, especially considering it cost 75AUD.
Similar in some ways to the K702 (I've heard the term AKG mids be used before) similar mids which I like, bass doesn't go as deep on the K240 and is also a bit boosted through the mid bass, treble is a bit more harsh in some spots than the K702 and the soundstage is also smaller, still a pretty enjoyable listen to be honest. Just an FYI if anybody was thinking of the K240s, I'd recommend them as a cheap semi-open can
 

Robbo99999

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#76
Yeah for sure I'll let you know my thoughts once I get it up and running!

Yep I understand where you're coming from regarding the pads, I sort of felt like that when I EQ'd it last time, almost like it took away a bit of what made it special in the first place.

Either way I'll give it a crack, I'm pretty happy with the standard tuning of the K702 to be honest.

I ordered a set of K240s before I found out how cheap the K702s now are, the K240s finally arrived and I compared the two (no measurements).
If I didn't have the K702 I would've been happy with the K240, it's pretty good, especially considering it cost 75AUD.
Similar in some ways to the K702 (I've heard the term AKG mids be used before) similar mids which I like, bass doesn't go as deep on the K240 and is also a bit boosted through the mid bass, treble is a bit more harsh in some spots than the K702 and the soundstage is also smaller, still a pretty enjoyable listen to be honest. Just an FYI if anybody was thinking of the K240s, I'd recommend them as a cheap semi-open can
Ah, your K702 doesn't have the standard pads anymore? That would likely make my EQ invalid, because it's based on a stock K702 (with new factory spec pads - I think Crinacle tends to measure the headphones in audioshops).
 

samwell7

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#77
Ah, your K702 doesn't have the standard pads anymore? That would likely make my EQ invalid, because it's based on a stock K702 (with new factory spec pads - I think Crinacle tends to measure the headphones in audioshops).
Sorry I might've explained it poorly (mobile/late night!), My new (and current) K702 is completely standard.

Around 7-10 years ago I used to have a set of K702s which I'd sold when I didn't have the time to use them, for my old set I bought a set of K702 anniversary edition pads (the anniversary model was just coming out and was very hyped, especially the bass response).
When I swapped the pads back then I noticed a fair bit more bass and a bit less air, I can't remember the soundstage.
My experience with the anniversary pads makes me think that the anniversary edition pads continued to live on for the K7xx and K712, especially after seeing @solderdude's measurements of the K702 with the K712 pads.

So for my current setup your EQ settings should be perfect, my K702s are about a week old and have probably had 15 hours of usage on the pads.
 
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#78
@samwell7 & @Mulder , I developed another EQ for my K702, for my new K702 with the new pads, and I think it's an improvement, so try it if you like. It's based on Crinacle's measurements, but the main difference is that I chose only one of his measurements - he measures each headphone 3 times, so that's 6 individual measurements because 2 channels (2x3=6). Yep, so I chose to use an average of his right channel measurements as they were all very closely grouped without outliers, the right channel also most significantly was the one with the smallest 2kHz peak, because I identified through my listening of my original Crinacle EQ (which was based on an average of all the measurements) that my EQ was taking out too much energy on this 2kHz peak. One of his measurements was a bit of an outlier on the 2kHz peak which was skewing the average I had been using before, which was from the left channel. This average of the right channel I'm choosing also had the highest 6-9kHz peak which was a similarity with measurements from other sources, and peaking in this area is pretty darn harsh....so I wanted to use this measurement to EQ that down. One other similarity with other measurements from other sources, the right channel average I chose was also exhibiting the largest 500Hz-1kHz dip, and through some more recent EQ testing I've found the K702 does indeed need a small boost in this area to help deliver impact (previously I had thought it a measurement anomaly). Here's the link to the Crinacle graph tool where I got the K702 measurement, I chose the right channel measurement for the reasons I mentioned:
https://crinacle.com/graphs/headphones/graphtool/
and here's a pic of the measurement I used:
View attachment 106275

And here's my EQ based on the above measurement:
View attachment 106276
I did some listening tests on the tracks I use to tweak & compare EQ's, and used those tracks to tweak the bass. I found it interesting that the rolled off bass boost I applied delivered overall more bass impact than leaving an equivalent Low Shelf bass boost that extends further into the bass - I believe that's because the Low Shelf muddies the bass, as well as not letting the rest of the headphone shine as brightly......to me the EQ I did above is the optimum bass for this headphone when attempting to follow the contour of the Harman Curve....I don't think the K702 can benefit by boosting the bass any lower into the frequency range than that.

I'm pretty sure I'll still be sending in my K702 to Oratory, but this is an improvement whilst I'm (we're) waiting....goes to show that you shouldn't blindly use an average curve as a basis for EQ (or at least exclude the measurements that are non-representative before averaging, which is Oratory's approach, and also what I have done here)
I've tried the EQ, are you able to send me an export of your EQ settings so I can import it to Peace? for some reason it's rounding up my gain to the nearest whole number so it isn't exactly the same.

It's a bit hard to do a proper A/B comparison because of the level difference due to the -6dB of pre-gain I've applied, also I've noticed clipping when I have EqualiserAPO/Peace installed, even when nothing EQ is off which is making it difficult to accurately judge the differences.

Quick notes: the EQ sounds good! the bass is impressive and there's definitely some improvements in the treble, guessing it's the cut at 2.2k removing some 'honkiness/shoutiness', very noticeable when turning the EQ on or off in the middle of an electric guitar note.
With that being said both standard tuning and EQ'd sound good to me, there's an immediate difference when changing where I really notice the change in bass and upper mids but the glaring difference goes away pretty quickly for me, also I think the soundstage is somewhat reduced but it's hard to quantify and could potentially be because of volume mismatches.

With more listening and A/B swapping across different genres the extra bass is welcomed but I'm noticing a little but of muddiness down there somewhere depending on the track, I find the (lean) standard bass fairly well defined.

For now I'll disable enhancements to bypass EqualiserAPO but once you send me your exported EQ file I'll give it another go, as I think it'll be good to have the EQ on-hand for if I get sick of the standard tuning or want a bit more of a 'laidback' listening experience.
I think I read somewhere that an AKG K702 was used for the blind testing during the Harman testing for headphones (correct me if I'm wrong somebody) but I can understand why, it responds well to EQ and seems to have pretty low distortion.

This has me more excited for the K371s though as this is my first listen to something tuned towards the Harman target, thanks for your help!
 

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#79
I've tried the EQ, are you able to send me an export of your EQ settings so I can import it to Peace? for some reason it's rounding up my gain to the nearest whole number so it isn't exactly the same.

It's a bit hard to do a proper A/B comparison because of the level difference due to the -6dB of pre-gain I've applied, also I've noticed clipping when I have EqualiserAPO/Peace installed, even when nothing EQ is off which is making it difficult to accurately judge the differences.

Quick notes: the EQ sounds good! the bass is impressive and there's definitely some improvements in the treble, guessing it's the cut at 2.2k removing some 'honkiness/shoutiness', very noticeable when turning the EQ on or off in the middle of an electric guitar note.
With that being said both standard tuning and EQ'd sound good to me, there's an immediate difference when changing where I really notice the change in bass and upper mids but the glaring difference goes away pretty quickly for me, also I think the soundstage is somewhat reduced but it's hard to quantify and could potentially be because of volume mismatches.

With more listening and A/B swapping across different genres the extra bass is welcomed but I'm noticing a little but of muddiness down there somewhere depending on the track, I find the (lean) standard bass fairly well defined.

For now I'll disable enhancements to bypass EqualiserAPO but once you send me your exported EQ file I'll give it another go, as I think it'll be good to have the EQ on-hand for if I get sick of the standard tuning or want a bit more of a 'laidback' listening experience.
I think I read somewhere that an AKG K702 was used for the blind testing during the Harman testing for headphones (correct me if I'm wrong somebody) but I can understand why, it responds well to EQ and seems to have pretty low distortion.

This has me more excited for the K371s though as this is my first listen to something tuned towards the Harman target, thanks for your help!
Hi, sure no problem, find attached the text file which is the EqualiserAPO file for our EQ. Note that lines that have a # in front of them are filters that I was experimenting with that are turned off....so don't activate those filters.

Are you sure you're getting clipping, how do you know? I don't understand how just having EqualiserAPO & Peace can cause you to have clipping. There's actually a clipping meter in Peace, so maybe have that open and see what it's doing when you think you have clipping. Check your overall settings to make sure you've not got some setting accidentally enabled in EqualiserAPO & Peace....god knows what setting that would be though. Have a look in the Analysis Panel (bottom panel) in EqualiserAPO to make sure there are no red peaks - which will indicate you have something set at over 0dBFS.

About Peace rounding up to the nearest integer for Gain - you just have to change the settings in the menu to tell Peace to allow you to include decimals in the Gain field.

I think it was the K712 that was used by Harman for their research, but not googled that to confirm, just from memory.
 

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samwell7

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#80
Hi, sure no problem, find attached the text file which is the EqualiserAPO file for our EQ. Note that lines that have a # in front of them are filters that I was experimenting with that are turned off....so don't activate those filters.

Are you sure you're getting clipping, how do you know? I don't understand how just having EqualiserAPO & Peace can cause you to have clipping. There's actually a clipping meter in Peace, so maybe have that open and see what it's doing when you think you have clipping. Check your overall settings to make sure you've not got some setting accidentally enabled in EqualiserAPO & Peace....god knows what setting that would be though. Have a look in the Analysis Panel (bottom panel) in EqualiserAPO to make sure there are no red peaks - which will indicate you have something set at over 0dBFS.

About Peace rounding up to the nearest integer for Gain - you just have to change the settings in the menu to tell Peace to allow you to include decimals in the Gain field.

I think it was the K712 that was used by Harman for their research, but not googled that to confirm, just from memory.
I'll try the text file tomorrow, I could hear the clipping/distortion and also could see it clipping in PEACE in the meter you're talking about - this was with PEACE turned to 'off' and nothing happening in EqualiserAPO.

If I turned my source down a bit the clipping would stop, if I went into the sound settings and disabled enhancements for my DAC (completely bypassing EqualiserAPO and PEACE) I could turn my source back to 100% with no distortion, something strange is happening.
 

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