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Is Akg k702 really a power hungry headphone ??

Robbo99999

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I'll try the text file tomorrow, I could hear the clipping/distortion and also could see it clipping in PEACE in the meter you're talking about - this was with PEACE turned to 'off' and nothing happening in EqualiserAPO.

If I turned my source down a bit the clipping would stop, if I went into the sound settings and disabled enhancements for my DAC (completely bypassing EqualiserAPO and PEACE) I could turn my source back to 100% with no distortion, something strange is happening.
What do you mean by your source, what's your source? Can you describe your 'full' audio chain for me, hardware parts & software & settings?
 

samwell7

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What do you mean by your source, what's your source? Can you describe your 'full' audio chain for me, hardware parts & software & settings?
All good, source is software.

Full chain (for the listening today):
Windows 10/Spotify premium (volume normalisation turned off), USB at 100% output volume > Panasonic SA-PMX92 as DAC (24/48k) and headphone/speaker amp > K702.

When I say reducing volume on the source I'm talking about turning the volume slider down in Spotify, I can't remember if turning down the USB output volume from Windows had the same effect but I'd guess it would.

Prior to reinstalling EqualiserAPO and PEACE I'd always run full volume out of Spotify and 100% USB output volume without any clipping, also clipping is gone when I turn off all enhancements from the sound control panel for the DAC (with EqualiserAPO and peace installed, I don't need to touch it normally), I'm not worried it's the amp as it has plenty of headroom and I've listened much louder without clipping.

Depending on how busy work is tomorrow I can probably try it with an Apple USB C to 3.5mm dongle out of the PC (straight to the K702) and see if it makes a difference.
 

Robbo99999

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All good, source is software.

Full chain (for the listening today):
Windows 10/Spotify premium (volume normalisation turned off), USB at 100% output volume > Panasonic SA-PMX92 as DAC (24/48k) and headphone/speaker amp > K702.

When I say reducing volume on the source I'm talking about turning the volume slider down in Spotify, I can't remember if turning down the USB output volume from Windows had the same effect but I'd guess it would.

Prior to reinstalling EqualiserAPO and PEACE I'd always run full volume out of Spotify and 100% USB output volume without any clipping, also clipping is gone when I turn off all enhancements from the sound control panel for the DAC (with EqualiserAPO and peace installed, I don't need to touch it normally), I'm not worried it's the amp as it has plenty of headroom and I've listened much louder without clipping.

Depending on how busy work is tomorrow I can probably try it with an Apple USB C to 3.5mm dongle out of the PC (straight to the K702) and see if it makes a difference.
Ok, well I'm thinking that shouldn't clip, but I have an idea why Peace might show clipping on it's clipping meter, although I'm surprised you hear the clipping. So, in my EQ experience using Peace, I know I can give enough negative preamp to cover the maximum boost of the total EQ curve - ie no red peaks showing in the EqualiserAPO Analysis Panel, so theoretically this should not clip, but then I noticed in some tracks that the Peace clipping meter was turning red on some passages. By increasing the negative preamp (applying more negative preamp) stopped this from happening. After researching this & discussing this with members on here I found out that it was related to the phenomenon of intersample overs as well as the fact that at the time I was using a High Pass Filter on the bass to cut the low bass off in a bid to reduce bass distortion & increase overall clarity. The sharp High Pass Filter I was using was causing Phase Shift in the bass which effectively meant that different peaks in the bass were being time shifted so that occasionally different peaks would overlap and therefore magnify eachother - leading to digital clipping and that was being shown by the Peace clipping meter. I solved the problem (at the time) by using a less sharp High Pass Filter and also running an extra -2dB on the negative preamp in EqualiserAPO - using Orban Loudness Meter I worked out that pretty much all my music doesn't have intersample over peaks greater than 2dB, so that's why I chose to add an extra -2dB to account for both the intersample overs and the effect of the phase shift caused by the High Pass Filter. (At the moment I don't use any High Pass Filters, except for on my NAD HP50 headphone, and instead I use Peak Filters for boosting bass that have a natural roll off so therefore no need for a High Pass Filter.....I still use an extra -2dB to account for intersample overs though).

(Do you know if you DAC, it's a slightly unconventional one....do you know if it's doing anything "funky" to the digital signal when it's allowed to "run enhancements", seeing as when you turned off that option in the windows control panel you didn't get clipping?)
 

samwell7

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Ok, well I'm thinking that shouldn't clip, but I have an idea why Peace might show clipping on it's clipping meter, although I'm surprised you hear the clipping. So, in my EQ experience using Peace, I know I can give enough negative preamp to cover the maximum boost of the total EQ curve - ie no red peaks showing in the EqualiserAPO Analysis Panel, so theoretically this should not clip, but then I noticed in some tracks that the Peace clipping meter was turning red on some passages. By increasing the negative preamp (applying more negative preamp) stopped this from happening. After researching this & discussing this with members on here I found out that it was related to the phenomenon of intersample overs as well as the fact that at the time I was using a High Pass Filter on the bass to cut the low bass off in a bid to reduce bass distortion & increase overall clarity. The sharp High Pass Filter I was using was causing Phase Shift in the bass which effectively meant that different peaks in the bass were being time shifted so that occasionally different peaks would overlap and therefore magnify eachother - leading to digital clipping and that was being shown by the Peace clipping meter. I solved the problem (at the time) by using a less sharp High Pass Filter and also running an extra -2dB on the negative preamp in EqualiserAPO - using Orban Loudness Meter I worked out that pretty much all my music doesn't have intersample over peaks greater than 2dB, so that's why I chose to add an extra -2dB to account for both the intersample overs and the effect of the phase shift caused by the High Pass Filter. (At the moment I don't use any High Pass Filters, except for on my NAD HP50 headphone, and instead I use Peak Filters for boosting bass that have a natural roll off so therefore no need for a High Pass Filter.....I still use an extra -2dB to account for intersample overs though).

(Do you know if you DAC, it's a slightly unconventional one....do you know if it's doing anything "funky" to the digital signal when it's allowed to "run enhancements", seeing as when you turned off that option in the windows control panel you didn't get clipping?)

Thanks for your response!

I may not have explained it correctly (and I can take screenshots tomorrow if required), with both EqualiserAPO and peace installed but the big on/off switch on the top right-hand corner of peace switched to off (so in theory there should be no impact on the audio chain) I can hear clipping/distortion and see it on the meter down the bottom of Peace (it stays active).
I'm using the 'disable enhancements' button almost as if to completely 'unplug' EqualiserAPO/peace because it was still changing the audio path even when set peace was set to off.

So, there are 4 states:
1. EqualiserAPO/peace installed, EQ active (peace turned on);
2. EqualiserAPO/peace installed, EQ not active (peace turned off);
3. EqualiserAPO/peace installed and 'locked out' (turned off enhancements in windows sound control panel); and
4. EqualiserAPO/peace not installed.

Those states yield the following outputs:
State 1:
I can hear the EQ changes, there is some minor distortion/muddiness very rarely, most likely explained by what you've stated above as my preamp is set at -6dB and max gain is at +5dB.

State 2:
I can hear the standard tuning i.e. no EQ effect however I can hear clipping/distortion on the peaks of music with Spotify and USB volume at 100% (fairly sure this is independent of the physical volume on my headphone amp).

State 3:
Spotify at full volume, USB volume at 100%, no clipping/distortion.

State 4:
Same as state 3

In normal operation, i.e. state 4 above, disable enhancements has no effect as there are no software enhancements turned on in the PC and the hardware on the DAC is set for flat (tone controls off, eq off, D Bass off, 'spatial sound' off etc.).

Hope this helps!
Also please note this was not supposed to come across as rude or condescending, I just find it easier to convey when things are broken down into bullet points
 

Robbo99999

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Thanks for your response!

I may not have explained it correctly (and I can take screenshots tomorrow if required), with both EqualiserAPO and peace installed but the big on/off switch on the top right-hand corner of peace switched to off (so in theory there should be no impact on the audio chain) I can hear clipping/distortion and see it on the meter down the bottom of Peace (it stays active).
I'm using the 'disable enhancements' button almost as if to completely 'unplug' EqualiserAPO/peace because it was still changing the audio path even when set peace was set to off.

So, there are 4 states:
1. EqualiserAPO/peace installed, EQ active (peace turned on);
2. EqualiserAPO/peace installed, EQ not active (peace turned off);
3. EqualiserAPO/peace installed and 'locked out' (turned off enhancements in windows sound control panel); and
4. EqualiserAPO/peace not installed.

Those states yield the following outputs:
State 1:
I can hear the EQ changes, there is some minor distortion/muddiness very rarely, most likely explained by what you've stated above as my preamp is set at -6dB and max gain is at +5dB.

State 2:
I can hear the standard tuning i.e. no EQ effect however I can hear clipping/distortion on the peaks of music with Spotify and USB volume at 100% (fairly sure this is independent of the physical volume on my headphone amp).

State 3:
Spotify at full volume, USB volume at 100%, no clipping/distortion.

State 4:
Same as state 3

In normal operation, i.e. state 4 above, disable enhancements has no effect as there are no software enhancements turned on in the PC and the hardware on the DAC is set for flat (tone controls off, eq off, D Bass off, 'spatial sound' off etc.).

Hope this helps!
Also please note this was not supposed to come across as rude or condescending, I just find it easier to convey when things are broken down into bullet points
Yeah, I don't know, I'm at a bit of a loss there.....I suggest you just run a larger negative preamp and not worry about the "why". The "Disable enhancements" button, I had assumed that just meant software enhancements implemented by the software drivers specific to the USB DAC and not to independant software in Windows.....so I thought that was just referring to say my Soundblaster software in my case for my Soundblaster G6 DAC, whereas I had thought that "Disable Enhancements" options would not relate to the independant software of Equaliser APO. Have you actually used the "Disable Enhancements" button and verified that Equaliser APO EQ effects are not applied? I thought it was only in relation to the DAC specific software.

But either way, that's a strange situation you're seeing in your State #2 listed above, I can't explain that, but perhaps it doesn't matter.....just run a slightly larger negative preamp.
 

samwell7

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Yeah, I don't know, I'm at a bit of a loss there.....I suggest you just run a larger negative preamp and not worry about the "why". The "Disable enhancements" button, I had assumed that just meant software enhancements implemented by the software drivers specific to the USB DAC and not to independant software in Windows.....so I thought that was just referring to say my Soundblaster software in my case for my Soundblaster G6 DAC, whereas I had thought that "Disable Enhancements" options would not relate to the independant software of Equaliser APO. Have you actually used the "Disable Enhancements" button and verified that Equaliser APO EQ effects are not applied? I thought it was only in relation to the DAC specific software.

But either way, that's a strange situation you're seeing in your State #2 listed above, I can't explain that, but perhaps it doesn't matter.....just run a slightly larger negative preamp.

I think I've worked out what it was - it seems EqualiserAPO had some settings turned on from a previous EQ, so even when I was turning Peace off - so there were still some effects being applied through EqualiserAPO.

Regarding the signal enhancements being across the whole Windows environment: refer to the Control Panel section under Troubleshooting on this link which is the Equalizer APO wiki, it shows how if the 'Enable Audio Enhancements' checkbox is unticked then no APOs (i.e. Equaliser APO, Peace and whatever else) will not be able to run, nice easy way to A/B effects vs. no effects.

I'm now leaving Equaliser APO and Peace installed, with Peace turned off (i.e. State 2 above) and it sounds the same as normal (no extra distortion.

Edit: found this post on ASR regarding Windows own volume limiting causing clipping/distortion, I've now set Equaliser APO to have a -0.2dB preamp all the time.
 

Robbo99999

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I think I've worked out what it was - it seems EqualiserAPO had some settings turned on from a previous EQ, so even when I was turning Peace off - so there were still some effects being applied through EqualiserAPO.

Regarding the signal enhancements being across the whole Windows environment: refer to the Control Panel section under Troubleshooting on this link which is the Equalizer APO wiki, it shows how if the 'Enable Audio Enhancements' checkbox is unticked then no APOs (i.e. Equaliser APO, Peace and whatever else) will not be able to run, nice easy way to A/B effects vs. no effects.

I'm now leaving Equaliser APO and Peace installed, with Peace turned off (i.e. State 2 above) and it sounds the same as normal (no extra distortion.

Edit: found this post on ASR regarding Windows own volume limiting causing clipping/distortion, I've now set Equaliser APO to have a -0.2dB preamp all the time.
EqualiserAPO used on it's own is actually more powerful and easier to use than Peace once you've worked out how it fits together. Good that you worked it out. Thanks for the link re "signal enhancements" - yeah I can see EqualiserAPO would fall under that setting in the Windows Control Panel.
At least now you can actually listen to the EQ's properly without having two activated at the same time!
 

samwell7

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EqualiserAPO used on it's own is actually more powerful and easier to use than Peace once you've worked out how it fits together. Good that you worked it out. Thanks for the link re "signal enhancements" - yeah I can see EqualiserAPO would fall under that setting in the Windows Control Panel.
At least now you can actually listen to the EQ's properly without having two activated at the same time!

Thanks, yeah Peace is a GUI for EqualiserAPO anyway isn't it? I think I prefer just using EqualiserAPO but it's hard when most files seem to be able to be dragged and dropped straight into Peace, either way now there isn't a doubling up of EQ I'll give the settings another crack.

Also, my K371s arrived yesterday - haven't had a proper listen yet but it sounds pretty similar to the EQ'd K702 (with more bass and a smaller, more direct soundstage that is) The K371 is pretty impressive
 

samwell7

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Hi, sure no problem, find attached the text file which is the EqualiserAPO file for our EQ. Note that lines that have a # in front of them are filters that I was experimenting with that are turned off....so don't activate those filters.

Are you sure you're getting clipping, how do you know? I don't understand how just having EqualiserAPO & Peace can cause you to have clipping. There's actually a clipping meter in Peace, so maybe have that open and see what it's doing when you think you have clipping. Check your overall settings to make sure you've not got some setting accidentally enabled in EqualiserAPO & Peace....god knows what setting that would be though. Have a look in the Analysis Panel (bottom panel) in EqualiserAPO to make sure there are no red peaks - which will indicate you have something set at over 0dBFS.

About Peace rounding up to the nearest integer for Gain - you just have to change the settings in the menu to tell Peace to allow you to include decimals in the Gain field.

I think it was the K712 that was used by Harman for their research, but not googled that to confirm, just from memory.

Hey, I've been able to have a listen to your EQ now that EqualiserAPO isn't doubling up on the EQ!
Funnily enough the last thing I was EQing in EqualiserAPO needed a boost at around 2k, which would explain the massive difference in 'honkiness' when I was turning the EQ on and off via Peace and why I thought having equaliser APO/peace installed was destroying sound quality.

Anyway, after having a listen I am thoroughly enjoying the EQ settings for the K702, can't wait to see how it turns out after the K702s get measured by oratory 1990.

Great work!
 

Robbo99999

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Thanks, yeah Peace is a GUI for EqualiserAPO anyway isn't it? I think I prefer just using EqualiserAPO but it's hard when most files seem to be able to be dragged and dropped straight into Peace, either way now there isn't a doubling up of EQ I'll give the settings another crack.

Also, my K371s arrived yesterday - haven't had a proper listen yet but it sounds pretty similar to the EQ'd K702 (with more bass and a smaller, more direct soundstage that is) The K371 is pretty impressive
Yeah, Peace is just a GUI add on for EqualiserAPO.
Hey, I've been able to have a listen to your EQ now that EqualiserAPO isn't doubling up on the EQ!
Funnily enough the last thing I was EQing in EqualiserAPO needed a boost at around 2k, which would explain the massive difference in 'honkiness' when I was turning the EQ on and off via Peace and why I thought having equaliser APO/peace installed was destroying sound quality.

Anyway, after having a listen I am thoroughly enjoying the EQ settings for the K702, can't wait to see how it turns out after the K702s get measured by oratory 1990.

Great work!
Ha, that's great, I'm pleased you like the EQ I did based on Crinacle's measurement! Yes, having two different sets of EQ would totally destroy the sound fidelity & your enjoyment, but as you say you've sorted that now & so only have just my EQ enabled, good stuff. I'll be posting somewhere once Oratory has measured my K702, I may create a new thread for it as it's hard to keep track of all the different threads where I've mentioned I'll be getting them tested and where people have expressed interest.....so keep your eyes peeled, but won't be until mid February at the absolute earliest.
 

samwell7

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Yeah, Peace is just a GUI add on for EqualiserAPO.

Ha, that's great, I'm pleased you like the EQ I did based on Crinacle's measurement! Yes, having two different sets of EQ would totally destroy the sound fidelity & your enjoyment, but as you say you've sorted that now & so only have just my EQ enabled, good stuff. I'll be posting somewhere once Oratory has measured my K702, I may create a new thread for it as it's hard to keep track of all the different threads where I've mentioned I'll be getting them tested and where people have expressed interest.....so keep your eyes peeled, but won't be until mid February at the absolute earliest.
For sure! And there was also a high-pass filter left enabled which would likely explain the distortion you spoke about.

I look forward to seeing these measurements and EQ results in Feb-March, I used Oratory1990's AKG K371 filters today, not a drastic difference as the changes aren't huge but there was some improvement
 

restorer-john

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Anyone tried both akg k702 and K612 pro.

I have AKG-702s and AKG-601s and some K500/501s. The 601 and 702 are awfully close and if I had to pick the one I liked the best, I'd go with the 601. It has a proper 1/4" jack, not the silly screw 3.5mm adaptor (I hate them) and the band/hinge/cup doesn't squeak like the 702 does.
 

samwell7

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K702 (stock) vs K702 with K712 pads (ignore the deeper dip around 4kHz):
k702-gn-vs-k702-with-k7xx-pads.png
Hey! Just to revive an old thread, I was looking for AKG K712 pads from the distributor - when I searched the part number I found one of my old Reddit posts about the K702 anniversary edition pads, the part number is the same (5021871) good to get a bit of confirmation there.
It's a shame the pads are >$60AU each, I might try one of the brainwavz alternatives
 

Bob-23

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Hey! Just to revive an old thread, I was looking for AKG K712 pads from the distributor - when I searched the part number I found one of my old Reddit posts about the K702 anniversary edition pads, the part number is the same (5021871) good to get a bit of confirmation there.
It's a shame the pads are >$60AU each, I might try one of the brainwavz alternatives
I'd be reluctant with aftermarket pads - frequency response probably will change in an unpredictable manner. I'd wait for Robbo's Oratory1990 measurements, and see how this is affecting the sound.
 

Robbo99999

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I'd be reluctant with aftermarket pads - frequency response probably will change in an unpredictable manner. I'd wait for Robbo's Oratory1990 measurements, and see how this is affecting the sound.
Good idea, my Thomann pads (genuine replacements) should be shipped like today, then it has to clear customs, etc. I'll then send off my old K702 with old pads & include the new pads in the package.....Oratory has said he'd measure both old & new pads. Bloody hell though, those genuine K702 pads from Thomann are expensive, as the price listed is only for one side, so you have to double it & also pay VAT - it's nearly half the cost of the headphone! Likely to be at least a month from now before we have the measurement & EQ from Oratory, due to all the lead times involved at each point.
 

samwell7

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I'd be reluctant with aftermarket pads - frequency response probably will change in an unpredictable manner. I'd wait for Robbo's Oratory1990 measurements, and see how this is affecting the sound.

Yep, was thinking about it last night - I'll grab the genuine pads rather than aftermarket, too many unknowns with aftermarket.
Note that they're the K712 pads not the K702 pads, the K712 pads were also used on the K702 65th anniversary and the K7xx, a K702 with the K712 pads is basically a K712/K7xx as shown by @solderdude's measurements.
For me it's an easy way of taming the treble spike and boosting the bass slightly without using EQ as I use multiple different devices/headphones over the day - not needing EQ is a benefit, also it's an easy way to get two 'different' sets of cans without taking up double the space.

I purchased the K712/K702 65th pads years ago for my Austrian K702 before I sold all my headphones and it was a nice difference swapping between the pads when I felt like something different.
 

samwell7

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Good idea, my Thomann pads (genuine replacements) should be shipped like today, then it has to clear customs, etc. I'll then send off my old K702 with old pads & include the new pads in the package.....Oratory has said he'd measure both old & new pads. Bloody hell though, those genuine K702 pads from Thomann are expensive, as the price listed is only for one side, so you have to double it & also pay VAT - it's nearly half the cost of the headphone! Likely to be at least a month from now before we have the measurement & EQ from Oratory, due to all the lead times involved at each point.

Awesome! I look forward to seeing the measurements, yeah AKG genuine pads are expensive! On Amazon the cost difference between a K702 and K712 is about 130AUD, which is about the cost for the K712 pads
 

Bob-23

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Bloody hell though, those genuine K702 pads from Thomann are expensive
I thought that was for the two of them - exploitative prices... And thanks for sending the K702 to Oratory.

the K712 pads were also used on the K702 65th anniversary
So, Oratory's K702 anniversary settings should differ quite a lot from the genuin K702...
 

Robbo99999

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I thought that was for the two of them - exploitative prices... And thanks for sending the K702 to Oratory.


So, Oratory's K702 anniversary settings should differ quite a lot from the genuin K702...
I'm expecting K702 to have less bass than the Anniversary Edition, and I'm also expecting K702 to not have the dip in the treble away from the Harman Curve (which the Anniversary Edition has at 3.5kHz as seen by Oratory's measurement here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j6yr8g87j2nb1yo/AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition.pdf?dl=0) and I'm expecting the treble section to be above the Harman Curve in all places.
 

Jimbob54

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Yep, was thinking about it last night - I'll grab the genuine pads rather than aftermarket, too many unknowns with aftermarket.
Note that they're the K712 pads not the K702 pads, the K712 pads were also used on the K702 65th anniversary and the K7xx, a K702 with the K712 pads is basically a K712/K7xx as shown by @solderdude's measurements.
For me it's an easy way of taming the treble spike and boosting the bass slightly without using EQ as I use multiple different devices/headphones over the day - not needing EQ is a benefit, also it's an easy way to get two 'different' sets of cans without taking up double the space.

I purchased the K712/K702 65th pads years ago for my Austrian K702 before I sold all my headphones and it was a nice difference swapping between the pads when I felt like something different.
Are the 712 pads angled or symmetrical?
 
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