Is a streamer / DAP really less noisy than a traditional computer? And we can hear that?

[maruko]

Hi @amirm and ASR forum, i’ve been following you for a few years now with great pleasure. But now I would like make you some questions I can’t answer. Sorry for my bad English

My source gear:
1)Self built mini-ITX computer (low power, theoretically lower noise cpu and high quality chokes) for local audio files reproduction trough SSD connected with SATA cable (so data only, ssd is external powered by linear PSU) with Wtfplay offline, no GUI linux based audio player;

2)Topping M50 DAP/Streamer used only for local audio files reproduction trough microSD card;

-Topping D90 DAC (USB input)
-Topping A90 Headphone AMP (XLR inputs, XLR output)
-Dan Clark Aeon 2 Noire headphones

Knowing that:
-A good DAC does not care about computer noise and jitter. What matter is the measured performance at his analog outputs: if there is no flaws or any flaws is below the threshold of audibility, it is OK;

-If we measure little differences (for example, short vs long USB cables thread here on ASR) most part of measured differences are not audible;

-Any difference in sound we can hear, which is not corroborated by objective measurements and blind tests, is based on our expectations

Considering that:
-I trust audio science and this is the way i Bought all my gear;

-I don't feel comfortable with A-B quick tests. I can hear real differences only when I’m used to listen to the same gear for months and then I change something (even without being aware of it) in my hifi chain;

-I can’t do blind test between Computer and Topping M50 player because each time i detach USB cable from my audio computer, Wtfplay player needs to be reconfigured with the DAC

The fact:
-The first time i compared local file reproduction trough Wifi NAS streaming vs direct USB HDD connection on a Raspberry Pi years ago, I expected that Wifi streamed files should be sound worse. But it was the opposite: Wifi streaming seemed less noisy to me. By “less noisy” I mean the difference you can see on contrast and blacks between an OLED and an LCD screen on dark scenes. Maybe it is what some folks call “blacker background”?

-Now the same thing is happening with the Topping M50 player: didn't buy it expecting to improve the performance compared to my yet good existing audio computer, but only to save space and gain comfort (too many cables and PSUs, while the Topping M50 is so tiny and simple to use). But when i connected it the first time to my D90 DAC through USB input, the first thing i noticed - without any effort - was this increased contrast so that I was able to more easily distinguish background details in my favorite albums. Just like when after buying your first OLED TV you watch again your favorite movies

My questions:
1)How can this be explained? Is all about my imagination? Or maybe also a well designed DAC could be influenced by source (computer) noise in some way / to some extent?

2)So, if non-objectively existing differences in audio we hear in non-blind tests depend on our expectations, what about differences you can ear when you have no expectations about a result?


Thanks Amirm and all of you

 

[amirm]

Those impressions are not reliable unless you a) make the blind and b) repeat at least 10 times and guess correctly 8 out of 10 times. I routinely "hear" the differences you mention but they disappear when testing blind. Or listening at a different time. This kind of test is not hard at all.

I have zero reservation about using one source vs another. Use what is convenient, and not what people say sounds better/worse.

The only exception is that some sources can create ground loops which are clearly audible as noise. If you are not getting such noise, then the difference is not there unless you perform the above tests.

Be sure that in all cases you use bit-exact playback. How this is handled with different protocols.

 

[Killingbeans]

(so data only, ssd is external powered by linear PSU)

That's definitely superfluous. The controller chip on the SSD couldn't care less.

2)So, if non-objectively existing differences in audio we hear in non-blind tests depend on our expectations, what about differences you can ear when you have no expectations about a result?

You will always have expectations. You can't turn off your subconscious mind.

 

[maruko]

Thank you both, very useful replies, for me.
I could do blind test between PC and Topping M50 but only by using different inputs (USB for PC, I2S for Topping M50). I'll do some tests.

 

[maruko]

Those impressions are not reliable unless you a) make the blind and b) repeat at least 10 times and guess correctly 8 out of 10 times.

@amirm
Ok, this is the result…

1st run: I guessed 8 out of 10
2nd run: I guessed 6 out of 10

Topping M50 I2S input It seemed to me voices were more “forward”

 

[Trell]

mini-ITX computer

Any fans in that PC? How loud are they, if you’ve any?

 

[maruko]

Any fans in that PC? How loud are they, if you’ve any?

No, fanless

 

[Jimbob54]

@amirm
Ok, this is the result…

1st run: I guessed 8 out of 10
2nd run: I guessed 6 out of 10

Topping M50 I2S input It seemed to me voices were more “forward”

Did you check the output levels coming out of the dac were the same for both sources? It's not impossible that there is some processing /levelling in one route, not the other.

 

[maruko]

Did you check the output levels coming out of the dac were the same for both sources? It's not impossible that there is some processing /levelling in one route, not the other.

No, I don't know how to do it

 

[Ken Tajalli]

As Amir has correctly pointed out, there could be an issue with ground loop noise, provided:
- your PC is grounded, so a battery operated laptop or DAP have no issues.
- Your amp is also grounded and/or your DAC is grounded.
- You connect to your DAC with electrical means, SPDIF coax or USB.
- Your DAC does not have galvanic isolation.
A lot of IF's!
Connect your PC or DAP using Toslink and you are golden. However, a Toslink connection can have dropouts (rare) because it is real-time (no buffering). A wifi streamer on the other hand buffers data, so it is a more robust connection.
Again, use Toslink or balanced connection from DAC to amp, and you are golden.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

No, I don't know how to do it

This is very very important as we are quite sensitive to loudness differences and louder usually is perceived as better sounding (within limits of course).

Oldest trick of Hi-Fi dealers. Turn up the most expensive gear slightly.

Edit. Sorry I forgot. You use a multimeter. For simplicity play a 50Hz or 60Hz tone as most cheap multimeters can’t do higher frequencies. Then measure at the output of your amp with your multimeter set to AC. Be careful don’t short your amp accidentally by slipping. Make sure you get the voltage values equal as accurate as possible for each DAC respectively.

 

[DVDdoug]

Is a streamer / DAC really less noisy than a traditional compute?

Sometimes. I had a soundcard once that made noise when the hard drive was running. It wasn't terrible but very obvious, especially with headphones.

And can we hear that?

Sometimes. Noise (hum, hiss, whine, or clicks) is most-easily heard with quiet signals, or with silence. If you hear noise, you'll know it.

If the noise is not audible from either unit we cannot say one sounds better than the other. We can only say one measures better or it "technically better"

Topping M50 I2S input It seemed to me voices were more “forward”

Nobody knows what that means. Louder?

In the real world, if the levels are matched and there are no glitches/gaps in sound or other gross defects, there is ONLY noise, distortion, and frequency response. Distortion and frequency response are almost always better than human so usually the only difference/defect you'll hear is noise.

...With speakers in a room frequency response is the biggest difference. The room acoustics affect frequency response we can also get reverb and other "time related" effects from the reflected sounds. Passive speakers don't usually generate noise but sometimes they can rattle or buzz when driven loud.

​

 

[maruko]

Did you check the output levels coming out of the dac were the same for both sources? It's not impossible that there is some processing /levelling in one route, not the other.

So, you mean a DAC can output different levels (you mean output voltage?) with different sources? (PC, Laptop, DAP)?

 

[maruko]

Sometimes. I had a soundcard once that made noise when the hard drive was running. It wasn't terrible but very obvious, especially with headphones.


Sometimes. Noise (hum, hiss, whine, or clicks) is most-easily heard with quiet signals, or with silence. If you hear noise, you'll know it.

If the noise is not audible from either unit we cannot say one sounds better than the other. We can only say one measures better or it "technically better"


Nobody knows what that means. Louder?

In the real world, if the levels are matched and there are no glitches/gaps in sound or other gross defects, there is ONLY noise, distortion, and frequency response. Distortion and frequency response are almost always better than human so usually the only difference/defect you'll hear is noise.

...With speakers in a room frequency response is the biggest difference. The room acoustics affect frequency response we can also get reverb and other "time related" effects from the reflected sounds. Passive speakers don't usually generate noise but sometimes they can rattle or buzz when driven loud.

​

No, not necessarily louder, more like “more midrange presence”

But with blind tests I did today, I’m becoming aware of how easy can be to hear differences in sound that only exists in my mind

I failed many times Trying to guess what source / input was I listening to. This is what matters, at the end.

Thank you all

 

[Jimbob54]

So, you mean a DAC can output different levels (you mean output voltage?) with different sources? (PC, Laptop, DAP)?

Yes.
If the source device is doing (for example) volume leveling.

I'm not sure in the pc vs streamer comparison what your playback chain is or how many settings can be altered at each point.

 

[maruko]

Yes.
If the source device is doing (for example) volume leveling.

I'm not sure in the pc vs streamer comparison what your playback chain is or how many settings can be altered at each point.

On the PC I use Wtfplay. A minimal, no GUI, bit perfect Linux based player.

My chain is described in the first post

 

[Jimbob54]

On the PC I use Wtfplay. A minimal, no GUI, bit perfect Linux based player.

My chain is described in the first post

So it's the same music file being played on both chains (albeit a copy on the sd card in the streaming device)? What's the interface you use on the m50? Are there any configurable settings?

 

[Jmudrick]

No "noise" to be heard on either my Roon server PC or my WiiM mini.

 

[maruko]

So it's the same music file being played on both chains (albeit a copy on the sd card in the streaming device)? What's the interface you use on the m50? Are there any configurable settings?

Yes, you can configure alsa mixer (buffer size, etc) and other things on Wtfplay.

On Topping M50 you can configure:

-DSD (native / DOP / D2P)
-Output (I2S or SPDIF / USB)
-Bluetooth and Wifi (ON / OFF)
-EQ (i put it OFF)
-I2S phase (normal or reverse)
-I2S DSDR (DATA or LRCLK)
-I2S pin (14 or 15)

I used same identical files. A copy on the SSD (PC with Wtfplay), a copy on the microSD card (Topping M50)

Normally The interface i use on Topping M50 is USB, just like on the PC. But I had to use I2S To do the blind tests:

Source 1: PC > USB > D90 DAC > A90 amp

Source 2: Topping M50 > I2S > D90 DAC > A90 amp

I switched blind between These two inputs pressing the input button on the DAC

 

[SSS]

Yes, you can configure alsa mixer (buffer size, etc) and other things on Wtfplay.

On Topping M50 you can configure:

-DSD (native / DOP / D2P)
-Output (I2S or SPDIF / USB)
-Bluetooth and Wifi (ON / OFF)
-EQ (i put it OFF)
-I2S phase (normal or reverse)
-I2S DSDR (DATA or LRCLK)
-I2S pin (14 or 15)

I used same identical files. A copy on the SSD (PC with Wtfplay), a copy on the microSD card (Topping M50)

Normally The interface i use on Topping M50 is USB, just like on the PC. But I had to use I2S To do the blind tests:

Source 1: PC > USB > D90 DAC > A90 amp

Source 2: Topping M50 > I2S > D90 DAC > A90 amp

I switched blind between These two inputs pressing the input button on the DAC

In order to hear or not to hear noise you may use a sound file with no signal. There is software like Audacity which can create this. Also to create or download audio files with sine tones of different frequencies with different levels. So you may hear distortion or noise difference between the gear.