Is a streamer / DAP really less noisy than a traditional computer? And we can hear that?

[dogberry]

I have recently swapped out my tuner (a Quad FM4) and connected an old MacBook Pro which is always on and acts as a server for an array of disks with movies and photos on them. It and the connected disks, and three printers live some distance from my pre-amp, so a wired connection won't work. Just as proof of concept, I bought a matchbox-sized bluetooth adapter to plug into the pre-amp and used it to connect the MBP to stream internet radio.
Does it sound as good as a dedicated streamer? I don't know, but I can say this, for about $30CDN it sounds better than my tuner with its inevitable static. And I get hundreds of stations rather than four. I like to use radio more as background sound rather than serious listening, and it is more than good enough to accompany cooking, cleaning and reading. When I want to pay attention, I can now listen to BBC Radio 3 for the first time in nearly forty years. Possibly the best price/value ratio of any of my purchases!

 

[antcollinet]

Does it sound as good as a dedicated streamer?

The only limitation compared with a streamer will be the bluetooth - whose performance can vary depending on which bluetooth codec is in use. But in any case, is likely to be good enough for most ears.

If you wanted to make it essentailly as perfect as any streamer, you could replace the bluetooth device with an airplay reciever - which will be capable of lossless connection.

Not worth bothering though if you are happy with the sound as is. I use bluetooth to connect my Turntable to my amp. Purists probably hate me, but it is good enough for my casual vinyl use. I might one day reconfigure, and put a wire in - but it will only be so I am less an object of derision

 

[maruko]

[Blind Test] Topping M50 DAP vs PC

I did a blind test again, and this time I guessed 10 out of 10.

I could easily identify the M50 Topping because it sounded apparently louder (and also other differences)

How is this possible since what comes into the DAC is simply an asynchronous data stream?

Source 1: PC > USB > D90 DAC > A90 amp

Source 2: Topping M50 > I2S > D90 DAC > A90 amp

I switched blind between These two inputs pressing the input button on the DAC

@amirm

 

[dedobot]

[Blind Test] Topping M50 DAP vs PC

I did a blind test again, and this time I guessed 10 out of 10.

I could easily identify the M50 Topping because it sounded apparently louder (and also other differences)

How is this possible since what comes into the DAC is simply an asynchronous data stream?

Source 1: PC > USB > D90 DAC > A90 amp

Source 2: Topping M50 > I2S > D90 DAC > A90 amp

I switched blind between These two inputs pressing the input button on the DAC

@amirm

My bet is on the interfaces between sources and DAC. USB and I2S works at very different manner.

 

[maruko]

My bet is on the interfaces between sources and DAC. USB and I2S works at very different manner.

I thought the same thing. Maybe because I2S is not asynchronous on the Topping D90?

That’s why I did another blind A/B test: I2S vs USB in the same M50 Topping. I guessed what the USB input was 6 times out of 10. So I'm not very sure I can hear any difference between these two inputs.

 

[Julf]

I guessed what the USB input was 6 times out of 10. So I'm not very sure I can hear any difference between these two inputs.

With 6 out of 10, I am pretty sure you can't.

 

[dedobot]

I thought the same thing. Maybe because I2S is not asynchronous on the Topping D90?

That’s why I did another blind A/B test: I2S vs USB in the same M50 Topping. I guessed what the USB input was 6 times out of 10. So I'm not very sure I can hear any difference between these two inputs.

It's entirely possible the Topping have better USB implementation than your PC ( with audio in mind) . Usb depends on its controller, OS, driver..

 

[maruko]

With 6 out of 10, I am pretty sure you can't.

But I guessed 10 out of 10 between PC > USB > DAC and Topping > I2S > DAC

So, how it is possible? It’s only a data stream that is going asynchronously into the DAC. And even if I2S were actually synchronous, there should be no audible differences in jitter measurements, etc.

So I wonder if Amirm made any measurements, if this difference can result from measurements and how it can be explained.

 

[maruko]

It's entirely possible the Topping have better USB implementation than your PC ( with audio in mind) . Usb depends on its controller, OS, driver..

Yes, but D90 usb input is well implemented. When Amirm made measurements of different USB cables, Has shown that with a good DAC there is no difference

 

[Ron Texas]

Even if the computer has a fan the load from music playback will not cause it to ramp up to where you can hear it from a few feet away. I'm using a Lenovo Thinkpad that with only 8 gigs of memory turned out to be inadequate for editing photos.

 

[Julf]

But I guessed 10 out of 10 between PC > USB > DAC and Topping > I2S > DAC

Ah, yes, sorry, misread your comment.

 

[Head_Unit]

In order to hear or not to hear noise you may use a sound file with no signal.

At least back when, many DACs were programmed to shut off their outputs if they detected all zeros. In other words, cheat. Those same people were later employed by the emissions testing division of Volkswagen...
More seriously, I started testing DACs with IRRC NAB test CD, 22.05 kHz 1 LSB signal. Did not allow DACs to mute, but inaudible, and you could take FFTs of the rest of the spectrum.

 

[Head_Unit]

Is a streamer / DAP really less noisy than a traditional computer? And we can hear that?

As for this good question, I just posted in another thread that July 2023 Stereophile tests that. I forget the name of the streamer, but it's on page 67. The first answer seems to be "YES if the DAC is not the greatest" and the second question...maybe not, though let us not forget everyone's hearing is different.

 

[antcollinet]

As for this good question, I just posted in another thread that July 2023 Stereophile tests that. I forget the name of the streamer, but it's on page 67. The first answer seems to be "YES if the DAC is not the greatest" and the second question...maybe not, though let us not forget everyone's hearing is different.

Let us also not forget that no-one's hearing has infinite sensitivity - nor infinite bandwidth.

That is: there is a level of noise, and/or distortion, below which no-one can hear.

The vast majority of dacs measured here are already below that level, and while it is true that noisy devices such as PC's can generate noise into ground loops, it is also true that this can be easily mitigated with good system setup such as galvanic isolation (eg optical connections) ,balanced analogue interconnect, or setting up such there isn't a ground loop in the first place.

 

[Haskil]

- Mac mini : HDMI connected to a Denon AVR 3600 without music playing : background noise like pink noise audible 1 m from the speakers...

- Mac mini connected to the same amplifier optically without music playing : pitch-black silence...

I conclude that the Mac mini's HDMI output is noisy due to ground loops ; moreover, if I rummage in the rear sockets barefoot on the tiles and my arm touches the case of the mini with the forearm I feel the little tingles of a current leak...

This mini is also connected in Ethernet to a Netgear switch... Non-existent problem with the USB output from the Mac mini to Dac Topping DX3 Pro

 

[antcollinet]

- Mac mini : HDMI connected to a Denon AVR 3600 without music playing : background noise like pink noise audible 1 m from the speakers...

- Mac mini connected to the same amplifier optically without music playing : pitch-black silence...

I conclude that the Mac mini's HDMI output is noisy due to ground loops ; moreover, if I rummage in the rear sockets barefoot on the tiles and my arm touches the case of the mini with the forearm I feel the little tingles of a current leak...

This mini is also connected in Ethernet to a Netgear switch... Non-existent problem with the USB output from the Mac mini to Dac Topping DX3 Pro

What other kit is connected to the AVR? Tv? DVD Player etc.

Its probable, but not certain, that the mini is the source of the noise - it might just be that the additional ground connection completes a ground loop that allows noise current to flow from other devices. Certainly your experience of the "leakage" tingle mirrors mine when multiple bits of AV equipment are all linked together via the AVR. Each of them filtering incoming mains via capacitance to ground. The combined leakage of all those filters combining to form something quite uncomfortable when you touch it. I got a very strong zap when connecting an aerial lead from the TV to the wall. (connected to all those other devices via the AVR)

Incidentally - do you have an analogue connection in that system or is everything into the AVR digital. Ground loops normally couple noise by ground differences at each end of an analogue interconnect.

 

[Haskil]

What other kit is connected to the AVR? Tv? DVD Player etc.

Its probable, but not certain, that the mini is the source of the noise - it might just be that the additional ground connection completes a ground loop that allows noise current to flow from other devices. Certainly your experience of the "leakage" tingle mirrors mine when multiple bits of AV equipment are all linked together via the AVR. Each of them filtering incoming mains via capacitance to ground. The combined leakage of all those filters combining to form something quite uncomfortable when you touch it. I got a very strong zap when connecting an aerial lead from the TV to the wall. (connected to all those other devices via the AVR)

Incidentally - do you have an analogue connection in that system or is everything into the AVR digital. Ground loops normally couple noise by ground differences at each end of an analogue interconnect.

Bonjour ! And thank you for your reply. No analog connection but a satellite decoder connected via HDMI, a CD player connected via coaxial, a BD player connected via HDMI... an ATV via HDMI, a Chromecast via optical...

I'm going to have fun disconnecting each one of them to leave only the mini in HDMI connected to the Denon 3600 and see what happens.

By the way, I can never thank ASR enough thanks to whom I bought this Denon, a Topping DX 3 pro and a THX AAA 789 headphone amp... Three high-end devices at a normal price...

 

[BDWoody]

- Mac mini : HDMI connected to a Denon AVR 3600 without music playing : background noise like pink noise audible 1 m from the speakers...

Have you tried disconnecting the satellite connection? I've had several instances where the source of noise was the faulty ground of the TV service provider cable.

 

[Haskil]

Have you tried disconnecting the satellite connection? I've had several instances where the source of noise was the faulty ground of the TV service provider cable.

No noise with the HDMI of the ATV, DVD player, BD player and satellite decoder... Only with the HDMI of the Mac Mini... in the past I had a hum with the cable television in another house: it had been necessary put a TV socket with an internal capacitor to cut below 50 Hz... But there the noise is different, it is broadband...

 

[Miguelón]

But I guessed 10 out of 10 between PC > USB > DAC and Topping > I2S > DAC

So, how it is possible? It’s only a data stream that is going asynchronously into the DAC. And even if I2S were actually synchronous, there should be no audible differences in jitter measurements, etc.

So I wonder if Amirm made any measurements, if this difference can result from measurements and how it can be explained.

Is very unlike that a streamer or the PC changes nothing on the file decoding: they use standard algorithms and something different will be plenty of errors not just louder.

The most probably explanation to your test is just signal strength limitations by the PC or the streamer. I have the same differences when plugging my iPhone or ipad to the DAC, the signal is lower and I can easily find the difference.

The streamer USB audio output is probably optimized to DACs output 2 volts or 4 volts balanced line out, whereas PC or smartphones not.

By no reason you should expect any other audible differences once matching SPL on your test, unless the PC output is getting loops and introducing noise.