In the old video the Salon2 is still in production and their flagship speaker. In the new video, the Salon2 is being closed out.
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Interview Jim Garrett, Senior Director of Product Strategy at Harman
- Thread starter sweetchaos
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In the old video the Salon2 is still in production and their flagship speaker. In the new video, the Salon2 is being closed out.
Thinking about it more, I would expect the Salon2's bass advantage to outweigh the 328Be's better woofers, tweeter, and waveguide in a pure 2.0 comparison. Even with subs, the extra extension of the Salon2 still has certain advantages. With 2 external subwoofers and a pair of Salon2s, you basically have 4 subwoofers you can use to get a more even, tighter, and less distorted bass response. I believe this is the way @echopraxia uses his with his Rythmik subs, and I'm not sure this is something that would work as well with the smaller 328Be. Also, given that these are (kinda) targeted at the high-end or low-high-end market, I think a lot of that target market is still clinging to the outdated idea that a sub-less system is somehow "more cohesive", or "tighter" for music. Although, this being Revel, I would imagine that a larger than normal(for high end) percentage of their customers have read Toole's book, and they likely know that separate subwoofers are required for SOTA bass quality anyway, regardless of the loudspeakers.
Even if it's true that the F328Be is the better loudspeaker, it still seems like a poor marketing move to openly say that your $16k product is better than your $22k product. Really do appreciate the honesty, though. No doubt a good number of 2 channel purists will still buy the Salon2 based on its bass performance, but I have to think that a statement like this is going to drive a lot of those more objective folks, who've read Toole(and know his stance on separate subs), away from the Salon. As someone in that latter camp myself, and as someone who was almost certainly going to buy the Salon2 at some point, this really has me second guessing myself. Doesn't help that I love the aesthetics of the Salon2 way more than the aesthetics of the Be speakers. Now I'm hoping that a Salon3, or some other new flagship is on the near horizon
The thing with the Ultima2 is they sound a little bright for speakers these days because the off-axis response is too linear. Whereas most high end speakers these days follow a more downward sloping response. So I think most people will prefer PerformaBE over Ultima2 double-blind because its following a more modern target curve. Ultima2 is more of the early 2000s design philosophy. The old Paradigm Signature Be series also have a similar sound signature, and they both sound a bit more forward in-room than what most modern flagships are doing.
Helicopter
Major Contributor
His incentives have changed, and he is probably biased as a sales guy. I don't think it is fair to attack him and conclude he is lying. Obviously you don't want to take a sales person's word about what speaker to buy without further analysis.
The points he makes contrasting the speakers are valid. He just omits lots of other advantages of Salon like bass performamce.
The really crazy thing is how good the F208 is. That ceramic on the Be sounds like anodization plus fancy powder coat to me and I doubt the second step is much more than cosmetic. Looks sweet though.
The points he makes contrasting the speakers are valid. He just omits lots of other advantages of Salon like bass performamce.
The really crazy thing is how good the F208 is. That ceramic on the Be sounds like anodization plus fancy powder coat to me and I doubt the second step is much more than cosmetic. Looks sweet though.
Helicopter
Major Contributor
nerdoldnerdith
Senior Member
Based on everything I've read about Salon2 vs. F328Be, they both have their advantages and disadvantages over the other. Neither one is the superior speaker in all regards.
The F328Be has the more advanced waveguide and acoustic lens. It has newer woofers that may be lower in distortion than the Salon2 (though I have not been able to compare this. I haven't seen distortion measurements for both under identical test conditions.) It also has better cohesion among its drivers.
The Salon2 has deeper bass extension. It has wider directivity out to 10kHz. It has the sculpted baffle. It has a mid-woofer for a 4-way design.
I am the one who asked this question. Even thought he said point-blank that the F328Be, I will still probably end up buying the Salon2. I want a big honking speaker with a big, wide sound.
The F328Be has the more advanced waveguide and acoustic lens. It has newer woofers that may be lower in distortion than the Salon2 (though I have not been able to compare this. I haven't seen distortion measurements for both under identical test conditions.) It also has better cohesion among its drivers.
The Salon2 has deeper bass extension. It has wider directivity out to 10kHz. It has the sculpted baffle. It has a mid-woofer for a 4-way design.
I am the one who asked this question. Even thought he said point-blank that the F328Be, I will still probably end up buying the Salon2. I want a big honking speaker with a big, wide sound.
???? Side-by-side comparisons with the Studio2, the Salon2 and the F228Be demonstrated to me that the latter was distinguishable as the brightest in the group.
Agreed.
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The JBL M2 also has a lot of those same advantages over the Salon2, and in most regards, it measures even better than the F328Be, yet it still lost to the Salon2 in a blind shootout, due to the Salon2's wider dispersion to 10kHz. I think the Salon2's 4 way design really helps it in this regard.
One thing Jim said that I 100% agree with, is that you can't go wrong with either. They're both fantastic loudspeakers.
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it’s doubtful a salon3 is going to happen. It will most likely wind up retailing for $40k+ I just don’t see how Harman could manufacture a similar speaker and keep the profit margin high enough in 2020. The build quality in the salon2 is extraordinary, it trounces my JBL 4367... honestly makes it look quite shabby in comparasion. Older models from pre 2010 also have the advantage of being made entirely in the USA. There’s a reason I drool over the salon2.
nerdoldnerdith
Senior Member
I have heard that it's coming... at some point. I don't know what they can do other than throw an extra driver on the F328Be and use a sculpted baffle. Or they could go active, but that would be a departure.
Helicopter
Major Contributor
Speakers have gotten way more expensive in 13 years. If margins are a concern, they can minimize R and D by changing less, and they can control margin directly at the top line. If 40k doesnt do it, charge 50k...
Even if it's true that the F328Be is the better loudspeaker, it still seems like a poor marketing move to openly say that your $16k product is better than your $22k product
That's why I admire them. No BS. They just don't add additional drivers for the sake of it, jack up the price. I read in another thread where Kevin Voecks alluding to this. Hats off. Each release is carefully engineered with performance gains and at prices that's a bargain.
If don't think if I had Salon2 I would be necessarily upgrading each time "a better speaker" comes out. The improvements are too marginal for the money. And these are not poorly engineered products that dies after few years of use. If you don't give into FOMO and if you have a great system; there's no reason to jump. Law of diminishing marginal returns. I'll be holding onto my F328s for the next 20 years!
The time I would switch is if I had the F208s or F206s and make a jump to the Be line or wait for Ultima3. Certainly one is not getting 2x or 4x the performance, but the trade up is not insignificant; given better materials of tweeter, drivers and waveguide.
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I really wish they would go active. Like you said, it's going to be hard to beat the F328Be in the passive domain. Sculpted baffle, better bass extension, and wider dispersion (via 4 way design), all offer audible improvements that could all be realized in the passive domain, but beyond that it's gonna be tough. If they choose to stay passive, I just don't see how they can fully compete with these new SOTA active loudspeakers that offer noticeably flatter on/off axis FR and advanced directivity control.
Biggest reason to not go active seems to be that they'd lose business from those high end audiophiles that love to experiment with different placebos by "upgrading" to ever more expensive amps and dacs. For sure they would lose some business because of that, but I think that with the way Revel has positioned themselves(as a more science based company), they'd be less susceptible to this than the average high end manufacturer(like B&W) would be. They'd also gain business from the more objectively minded folks that understand the benefits of an active design.
How about a new TOTL without the sculpted cabinets but with a modular crossover and a choice between "classic" and a fully-active one (even if it required an umbilical link)?
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That would work, though personally I would prefer a sculpted baffle, mainly for the aesthetics, though it obviously also provides sonic benefit. The current Be line just doesn't look "hi end" to me in the way that the Studio series does.
Helicopter
Major Contributor
Focal Kantas look better than Be too.
Kal, you could have a crossover bypass to the drivers with speakon connectors or something multi pin. I thought about doing something like this with DIY speakers.
It is a great idea too because they could offer something like NAD M33 with the driver outputs and charge $10k for it. They could use nc252s or icepower and get $10k.
Kal, you could have a crossover bypass to the drivers with speakon connectors or something multi pin. I thought about doing something like this with DIY speakers.
It is a great idea too because they could offer something like NAD M33 with the driver outputs and charge $10k for it. They could use nc252s or icepower and get $10k.
I completely agree and, in fact, my choice of the Studio2 over the Be was greatly influenced by that factor.
What I suggested was a way to extend the PerformaBe line and its production economies upward effectively. Clearly, I would prefer if the appearance and cabinet design were similarly upgraded.
Helicopter
Major Contributor
I forgot about that. Maybe just line level and stick to Speakon for the bypass so people don't worry about cables.
Yeah, but I wonder. Greg Timbers retired, and my buddy who designed a lot of the drivers was laid off after the Samsung purchase...then (along with a number of laid off Harman-ites) hired by Samsung. He doesn't think there is much design resource left, and seems like the folks who really know processing are working on TVs etc.
