Interview Jim Garrett, Senior Director of Product Strategy at Harman

[sweetchaos]

Went live 20min ago...

Gene DellaSala from Audioholics talks with Jim Garrett, Senior Director of Product Strategy at Harman, about the technologies behind the new JBL HDI Series of Loudspeakers.
They discuss the horn technology and other aspects that have evolved at JBL over the last several decades.

Discuss!

 

[sweetchaos]

Nice to see @hardisj in on the action...Early bird gets the worm!

Q: Revel Salon2 or Revel F328Be? (at the end of presentation at 1hr 03min to 1hr 13min)
A: Jim answered in about 10min (very good to watch)...Jim has both at his house.
Overall, F328Be is a better loudspeaker, and it has a lot more technology than Salon2 (which was developed 12 years ago).

Q: JBL Studio 590 vs JBL HDI 3800?
A: Jim answered...different design criteria for these two.

No talks of future products...

 

[richard12511]

Wow! Really interesting that he says the 328Be is better than the Salon2 with no hesitation. Also carries a lot of weight since he owns both and designed both.

Even more interesting when you consider that the F208 arguably looks even better than the 328, at least objectively. I guess the Salon2 is starting to show it's age . We need a Salon3 !

 

[richard12511]

Thinking about it more, I would expect the Salon2's bass advantage to outweigh the 328Be's better woofers, tweeter, and waveguide in a pure 2.0 comparison. Even with subs, the extra extension of the Salon2 still has certain advantages. With 2 external subwoofers and a pair of Salon2s, you basically have 4 subwoofers you can use to get a more even, tighter, and less distorted bass response. I believe this is the way @echopraxia uses his with his Rythmik subs, and I'm not sure this is something that would work as well with the smaller 328Be. Also, given that these are (kinda) targeted at the high-end or low-high-end market, I think a lot of that target market is still clinging to the outdated idea that a sub-less system is somehow "more cohesive", or "tighter" for music. Although, this being Revel, I would imagine that a larger than normal(for high end) percentage of their customers have read Toole's book, and they likely know that separate subwoofers are required for SOTA bass quality anyway, regardless of the loudspeakers.

Even if it's true that the F328Be is the better loudspeaker, it still seems like a poor marketing move to openly say that your $16k product is better than your $22k product . Really do appreciate the honesty, though. No doubt a good number of 2 channel purists will still buy the Salon2 based on its bass performance, but I have to think that a statement like this is going to drive a lot of those more objective folks, who've read Toole(and know his stance on separate subs), away from the Salon. As someone in that latter camp myself, and as someone who was almost certainly going to buy the Salon2 at some point, this really has me second guessing myself. Doesn't help that I love the aesthetics of the Salon2 way more than the aesthetics of the Be speakers. Now I'm hoping that a Salon3, or some other new flagship is on the near horizon . Would be great to see Revel embrace an active design that could compete with these new SOTA speakers like the D&D 8C, but also be a tower with huge output.

 

[boselover61]

Thinking about it more, I would expect the Salon2's bass advantage to outweigh the 328Be's better woofers, tweeter, and waveguide in a pure 2.0 comparison. Even with subs, the extra extension of the Salon2 still has certain advantages. With 2 external subwoofers and a pair of Salon2s, you basically have 4 subwoofers you can use to get a more even, tighter, and less distorted bass response. I believe this is the way @echopraxia uses his with his Rythmik subs, and I'm not sure this is something that would work as well with the smaller 328Be. Also, given that these are (kinda) targeted at the high-end or low-high-end market, I think a lot of that target market is still clinging to the outdated idea that a sub-less system is somehow "more cohesive", or "tighter" for music. Although, this being Revel, I would imagine that a larger than normal(for high end) percentage of their customers have read Toole's book, and they likely know that separate subwoofers are required for SOTA bass quality anyway, regardless of the loudspeakers.

Even if it's true that the F328Be is the better loudspeaker, it still seems like a poor marketing move to openly say that your $16k product is better than your $22k product . Really do appreciate the honesty, though. No doubt a good number of 2 channel purists will still buy the Salon2 based on its bass performance, but I have to think that a statement like this is going to drive a lot of those more objective folks, who've read Toole(and know his stance on separate subs), away from the Salon. As someone in that latter camp myself, and as someone who was almost certainly going to buy the Salon2 at some point, this really has me second guessing myself. Doesn't help that I love the aesthetics of the Salon2 way more than the aesthetics of the Be speakers. Now I'm hoping that a Salon3, or some other new flagship is on the near horizon . Would be great to see Revel embrace an active design that could compete with these new SOTA speakers like the D&D 8C, but also be a tower with huge output.

At least they're honest yeah. To be fair this also be a ploy to sell the newer speakers. Maybe the Salon2 will still sell well among enthusiasts since most wouldn't be looking up these interviews. People interested in the newer speakers will probably see this video and buy the newer ones.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Doesn't help that I love the aesthetics of the Salon2 way more than the aesthetics of the Be speakers.

That was a major factor in my choice of the Studio2.

Now I'm hoping that a Salon3, or some other new flagship is on the near horizon .

Me, too.

Would be great to see Revel embrace an active design that could compete with these new SOTA speakers like the D&D 8C, but also be a tower with huge output.

Yeah. Seems quite logical to me.[/QUOTE]

 

[Beave]

When he says the 328Be is better than the Salon2, what does he mean? Better in what sense? I'd say a better answer would be that there are pros and cons to each one, with neither being clearly better than the other.

Then again, I haven't watched the video, and I haven't heard the two speakers, so what do I know!?!?

Edit: I just watched that portion of the video. He does touch on ways in which each is better than the other - but mostly in sweeping generalizations and not in technical comparisons (bass extension, ability to play loudly, on axis response, off axis response, thd, etc). That extra driver that the Salon2 has gets mentioned by Gene but barely.

 

[Beave]

Wow! Really interesting that he says the 328Be is better than the Salon2 with no hesitation. Also carries a lot of weight since he owns both and designed both.

Even more interesting when you consider that the F208 arguably looks even better than the 328, at least objectively. I guess the Salon2 is starting to show it's age . We need a Salon3 !

He's not the designer. He's not a designer at all, in fact.

 

[richard12511]

He's not the designer. He's not a designer at all, in fact.

Yeah "designed" was definitely a poor choice of word. He's certainly not an engineer. Perhaps "oversees the design of both" would maybe have been a better choice of words. Not exactly sure what he does, but his title makes it sound like he's in charge of where different Harman speakers are positioned in the market(ie we need a $22,000 floostander, we need a newer $16,000 floorstander, etc.). I could be very wrong, though.

 

[Helicopter]

When he says the 328Be is better than the Salon2, what does he mean? Better in what sense? I'd say a better answer would be that there are pros and cons to each one, with neither being clearly better than the other.

Then again, I haven't watched the video, and I haven't heard the two speakers, so what do I know!?!?

Edit: I just watched that portion of the video. He does touch on ways in which each is better than the other - but mostly in sweeping generalizations and not in technical comparisons (bass extension, ability to play loudly, on axis response, off axis response, thd, etc). That extra driver that the Salon2 has gets mentioned by Gene but barely.

He does give pros and cons. Better drivers. Better waveguide. Better finish. Better tweeter height. He says Salon has better baffle.

 

[Beave]

He does give pros and cons. Better drivers. Better waveguide. Better finish. Better tweeter height. He says Salon has better baffle.

But those are mostly vague pros and cons. Better waveguide, maybe, but mated with a 5 1/4" mid on the 328Be versus a 4" mid on the Salon2. So really a *different* waveguide with *different* requirements. Better finish? Obviously debatable, as seen in comments above. Better tweeter height, yes, for most people but probably not always. Better drivers? In what ways? Bandwidth? THD? Frequency response in band? Ability to play loud without compression? Drivers are always a series of tradeoffs, so it's often hard to say one driver is better than another.

The Salon2 wins in bass extension, doesn't it? And it wins in dispersion width up to about 10kHz.

 

[detlev24]

It is interesting how we debate about two products that are quite different from one another. Yes, ~12 years difference in development gives the F328Be an obvious engineering advantage. Maybe this is another way to see things:

• Forget the price tag. The Salon2's higher price is justified simply by its more refined finish [which, btw., makes the biggest difference in costs of consumer-targeted loudspeakers]
• Biggest audible difference is due to different bass extension; if subwoofer(s) were added, Salon2's advantage would certainly diminish. I wouldn't expect any disadvantage of the F328Be in terms of clarity and minimal ringing in the upper bass region [where common subwoofers won't play anymore], mainly due to different crossover frequencies from the respective LF to MF driver(s).

So, regarding flagship development at HARMAN, the following applies:

• F328Be (2020)
• JBL M2 (2013)
• Ultima2 Salon2 (2008)

Where the M2 is a totally different contender: full-range [certainly in-room] with lower (sub bass) distortion and higher SPL capabilities, while offering an even more controlled directivity (especially in the vertical plane) - due to its big waveguide.

A possibly future Salon3 would require to be DSP powered (like the M2), to allow for a considerable edge over the F328Be, IMHO.

 

[Helicopter]

I was just making a summary, not an argument.

I am not ready to pay even $5k for speakers from a low cost production location. If they were assembled in Northdridge, I might be more interested in how they sound. 3800s are probably more interesting to me anyway. The impedance looks incredibly good, really about 5ohm effective minimum from the chart. They would likely give Klipsch Heresy IVs a run for the money on amp friendliness.

That said, at 13 years into product life cycle, Salon2 is probably about ready for clearance sales under the 16k for the Be.

I won't be in the market for nice floorstanders for a long time so it doesn't really matter.

 

[BenB]

So much of what they talk about has some small amount of underlying truth, but has been simplified and manipulated by marketing or the graphics department to the extent that it is now factually inaccurate. Direct radiators are like garden hoses? Give me a break. Taking out "nefarious artifacts that can be added by the room", yet the salon 2 has wide dispersion and is well liked, and according to this guy, it actually uses a compression driver, but don't quote him on that. I'm pretty sure Gene recognizes these inconsistencies but is too polite to call him out.

 

[lovemusic]

Jim Garrett's take between the two speakers is not surprising. I auditioned a variety of speakers and felt 328s were the best I listened to with the Salon2s a close second. Its incredible to see the engineering progress they have made in 13 years!

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...28be-speaker-review.17443/page-21#post-566876

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...8be-speaker-not-mine.15299/page-2#post-554080

 

[richard12511]

I knew there existed another Audiholics video that kinda contradicts what's being said in this new video. I went back and watched it, and funny enough, it's also Jim Garret talking in that video . In that video, Gene asks essentially the same question (which is the flagship now between the F328 and the Salon2), and in that video Jim's answer is a little different. He does say that the F328 has a better waveguide, but he also makes it clear that the Salon2 is still the flagship, and the reason he gives for that is ~"it's really difficult to design a speaker that's better than it, but this one should right up next to it.". To me, that kinda implies that the Salon2 is still barely beating the F328be in their blind tests, but who knows. Perhaps his opinion has changed since then?

Here is the timestamped version of that other video.

 

[Beave]

Hilarious. Thanks for the detective work. He should get into politics!

 

[MZKM]

I knew there existed another Audiholics video that kinda contradicts what's being said in this new video. I went back and watched it, and funny enough, it's also Jim Garret talking in that video . In that video, Gene asks essentially the same question (which is the flagship now between the F328 and the Salon2), and in that video Jim's answer is a little different. He does say that the F328 has a better waveguide, but he also makes it clear that the Salon2 is still the flagship, and the reason he gives for that is ~"it's really difficult to design a speaker that's better than it, but this one should right up next to it.". To me, that kinda implies that the Salon2 is still barely beating the F328be in their blind tests, but who knows. Perhaps his opinion has changed since then?

Here is the timestamped version of that other video.

I would be interested in what the tolerances are for both. Are they the same or is the Salon2 held to tighter tolerances?
Too bad only companies like Neumann give this info.

 

[Helicopter]

In the old video the speaker is in development and pre production. In the new video, the speaker is in his house.

 

[restorer-john]

Even if it's true that the F328Be is the better loudspeaker, it still seems like a poor marketing move to openly say that your $16k product is better than your $22k product . Really do appreciate the honesty, though.

Pretty much standard procedure when you have a newish product and an older TOTL model which is likely soon to be retired. Pushes people to think they are getting a better newer product for less money (which may or may not be the case). They don't have to make small numbers of an older model and can turn out tons of the new one.

Then they bring out a new superior flagship speaker at probably double the price of the F328Be and set a new high bar. Even some of those recent 328Be buyers will need to upgrade because they will kick themselves for not waiting.