Understand what he wrote in the fist place ?
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Int. Tube amp or. tube preamp + amp
- Thread starter silver12
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Is neither an option
It is not about sounding nicely, but about being sonically accurate. Modern solid state amplifiers are almost invariably sonically transparent/accurate, and very few tube amplifiers are.
On topic , A well made tube pre may not have any sound .
Typically tube power amps have output transformers that interact with the speakers and produce some stuff an SS amp would not give you .
So the change of hearing the tubes are greater if it's a power amp .
But the "tube sound" is part of a mythology and human hearing is quite poor so in many cases it's not there at all .
With that in mind some modern offerings seems to be self fulfilling prophecies and made to behave badly , but back in the day when tube was the only game designers actually tried to make as good an amplifier they could with the technology at hand.
See this specimen:
www.audiosciencereview.com
Typically tube power amps have output transformers that interact with the speakers and produce some stuff an SS amp would not give you .
So the change of hearing the tubes are greater if it's a power amp .
But the "tube sound" is part of a mythology and human hearing is quite poor so in many cases it's not there at all .
With that in mind some modern offerings seems to be self fulfilling prophecies and made to behave badly , but back in the day when tube was the only game designers actually tried to make as good an amplifier they could with the technology at hand.
See this specimen:
Yaqin MC-84L Tube Stereo Amplifier Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Yaqin MC-84L Stereo Tube amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $600 on Amazon. The picture doesn't do justice to the nice design of this amplifier. The transformer case in the back nicely contrasts with the chrome parts. The...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Perhaps this is just not the ideal place to ask for opinion on which type of tube amp to buy because objectively most folks think SS are superior for objective reasons. If it's a choice based on other desires or reasons that's totally cool, but it's a subjective decision and therefore only you can make the choice
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No he actually means that badly designed amps are bad , its that simpleIf I understand you, all tube amps are bad because some are badly designed.
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Well, if one wants a tube amp, the usual reason in this century is not because it is more accurate. Rather because it is NOT. With the idea it has a unique and pleasing sound. That part is debatable, but telling someone get an accurate amp instead isn't a good argument if they want to live with "tube" sound.
Sure, but we should retain the distinction between fact and opinion.
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There are some clearly objective reasons tube amps sound different. The most obvious being FR alterations from the output impedance and transformers. There are a few other ideas about them. Some of which are false. Some of which are possible, but it has not been determined.
johny_2000
Senior Member
Would you give the McIntosh MHA200 a chance?
I have the opportunity to test the McIntosh MHA200 tube headphone amplifier in real-life conditions. The DAC will be devices with SINAD 120-125 dB. The load will be a dummy load of 32-300 Ohms. The measurements will be made using reliable tools to obtain THD, Noise, SINAD measurements. Is it...
www.audiosciencereview.com
I like that.
But we can try to explain why that is, it's not magic .
Output transformers low feedback other design considerations I'm not tech savy enough to describe ( we ask SIY for those ) .
Sellers of some tube stuff like AN tries Voo voo arguments like silver wires and special paper in oil capacitors and that Negative feedback is bad and other snake oil arguments .
Just bring it back to earth and explain that its quite measurable normal electrical properties .
And you who know tube amps may point to well made modern tube amps, or some classic that may be refurbished to working condition .
IF had the spare time and room for it I would consider DIY tube amps + some classic big effective totally wrong horn speakers for the fun of it
Sadly i have be more rational and use my limited space for one good setup ( even i wished i had more rooms )
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SIY is one to ask for such things for sure.I like that.
But we can try to explain why that is, it's not magic .
Output transformers low feedback other design considerations I'm not tech savy enough to describe ( we ask SIY for those ) .
Sellers of some tube stuff like AN tries Voo voo arguments like silver wires and special paper in oil capacitors and that Negative feedback is bad and other snake oil arguments .
Just bring it back to earth and explain that its quite measurable normal electrical properties .
And you who know tube amps may point to well made modern tube amps, or some classic that may be refurbished to working condition .
IF had the spare time and room for it I would consider DIY tube amps + some classic big effective totally wrong horn speakers for the fun of it
Sadly i have be more rational and use my limited space for one good setup ( even i wished i had more rooms )
One myth is because they have only 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion which if high enough is pleasant and if not lacking higher harmonics is nicer because we are sensitive to higher harmonic distortion at lower levels. Well the first part doesn't seem to be true and measurements show lots of tube gear has a spray of higher order harmonics even if 2nd and 3rd are the highest (they often are for SS amps too).
Another is they overload more nicely than SS amps. Depends upon the design and as someone said don't buy amps for how they overload, buy amps big enough they don't. I don't think most people are regularly overloading their amps of any type. This is not why tube amps are a thing. Music is too variable and you could not use an amp normally and keep it just overloading at just the right level. That is quite ridiculous if you think about it much.
Negative feedback being lower. Well you can do that with SS too. That doesn't make them sound like tubes.
The idea transformers and tube circuits cause the tube amps to act as something of a slight compressor. I think this might be a little of it myself, but don't know it is true. You can use some compression software and get things to sound smoother, the disparate parts more "glued" together. I don't know that it quite sounds like a tube just from that. The key for this is fast attack and slow release of the compression (300 milliseconds or more on the release).
The definitely real is how a high output impedance interacts with speakers which have variable impedance with frequency to change the FR of the speaker. You can add a series resistor on an SS amp to mimic this. It does sort of send the sound in the same direction. It can also effect the bass damping on ported speakers changing the sound at the low end.
SIY likely knows of some other parameters. Certainly one can enjoy the simpler circuitry intellectually. Kind of like people enjoy arts and crafts on its own without it competing with manufactured products.
I've owned a half dozen tube amps and other tube products so it isn't purely theoretical knowledge. When room correction became viable I kicked tubes to the curb and haven't looked back.
Bob from Florida
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I can offer a suggestion, but really need to know what speakers you will be using.
My take on this:
If somebody wants to get a tube amplifier for whatever other reason than objectively good sound quality - Fine. To each his own.
If one is honestly after objectively good sound quality, tube technology does not make sense nowadays. Almost all new solid state amplifiers - even most of the very cheap ones - are good enough to be sonically transparent in practice. Some well designed tube amplifiers are also good enough in this respect, but in no way superior, and they cost more, so purely from the sound quality point of view, there is no logical reason to go with the tubes.
Regarding the the question in op, if an integrated tube amp is preferable to a hybrid solution with a tube pre-amp and ss power amp, tubes are typically less detrimental to sound quality in pre-amp, than in power amp, so if one absolutely wants to have tubes, the hybrid solution is usually preferable from sound quality point of view.
If somebody wants to get a tube amplifier for whatever other reason than objectively good sound quality - Fine. To each his own.
If one is honestly after objectively good sound quality, tube technology does not make sense nowadays. Almost all new solid state amplifiers - even most of the very cheap ones - are good enough to be sonically transparent in practice. Some well designed tube amplifiers are also good enough in this respect, but in no way superior, and they cost more, so purely from the sound quality point of view, there is no logical reason to go with the tubes.
Regarding the the question in op, if an integrated tube amp is preferable to a hybrid solution with a tube pre-amp and ss power amp, tubes are typically less detrimental to sound quality in pre-amp, than in power amp, so if one absolutely wants to have tubes, the hybrid solution is usually preferable from sound quality point of view.
- Thread Starter
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Hello, i have Swiss speaker Rowen M8: (but older model think that they have 92db eff...)
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Bob from Florida
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Probably going to need some power to make them "come alive". Tube amp choice being the question, I suggest getting an amp with a higher damping factor. The unity coupled output design would be a decent choice.
McIntosh MC275
McIntosh MC275 Vacuum Tube Amplifier
The MC275 Vacuum Tube Amplifier has all the features to meet the needs of today’s music enthusiast while preserving the qualities that have made it the most revered McIntosh tube amplifier of all time.
www.mcintoshlabs.com
Quicksilver Audio KT Mono Amplifier
KT Mono Amplifier – Quicksilver Audio
quicksilveraudio.com
If you listen loud in a big room, you may need to go with solid state.
That is a very surprising statement. It is possible to design a very good tube amp and preamp, but recent commercial examples are pretty hard to find; almost all vastly underperform well-engineered tube amps of the past (e.g. Williamson, Mullard, Mac, RCA, deParavicini-era Luxman and EAR) as well as engineered DIY designs from people like Pete Millett, Morgan Jones, and (cough, cough) one of our members here.
- Thread Starter
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Thanks...its over my budget, now have rotel rb991, thinking to go in direction for good preamp...now i had Vincent sa32, jus looking for vincent sa t7...Probably going to need some power to make them "come alive". Tube amp choice being the question, I suggest getting an amp with a higher damping factor. The unity coupled output design would be a decent choice.
McIntosh MC275
orMcIntosh MC275 Vacuum Tube Amplifier
The MC275 Vacuum Tube Amplifier has all the features to meet the needs of today’s music enthusiast while preserving the qualities that have made it the most revered McIntosh tube amplifier of all time.
Quicksilver Audio KT Mono Amplifier
KT Mono Amplifier – Quicksilver Audio
If you listen loud in a big room, you may need to go with solid state.
Putting aside SETs, which are just glorified table radio amps, the main things affecting sonics are source impedance and overload characteristics (important because of the lower powers normally seen).
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