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Amp recommendation for tube preamp

Rotel75

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Oct 29, 2024
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Hi
I just got a (unbalanced) tube preamp clone and now need a decent power amp.
I have quite efficient 3-way flood standing speakers in a 30m2 room (edit: not 60).
Good reliability and low idle power consumption is preferred.

Here's my current scope:
- Audiolab 8000sx ~$120
- Silver SA5050 (HK770) ~$200
- Harman Kardon HK870
- Harman Kardon Citation 22
- ION SAM40
- Fosi Audio V3 mono ~$250
- 3e Audio TPA325X
- other?
 
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Welcome to ASR!

That is a large room. What are you driving your speakers with now and what listening volume do you need?

You might look at Buckeye Audio. They, as well as others, build amplifiers from Purfi and Hypex amplifier modules. Some of those modules can provide more power than the Texas Instruments TPA series if your room and speakers need that.

Fosi has been supportive of ASR. Their new ZD3 DAC could be a parallel alternative source to your tube preamp for streaming. Then 2 Fosi monoblocks would match it on your shelf along with your tube amp.

The HK were great in their day, but they will be hard to maintain and have more noise.

If you go to https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Reviews/ you can select Electronics, search and sort, then read reviews and see measurements.
 
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Thanks, this site is really cool :)

Sorry, had the wrong numbers in my head, it's only 30m2 :facepalm:
My Rotel RA-06 (70W@8) and Onkyo CR-L5 (50W@4) fill the room with ease.

I measured the power usage of the Rotel amp once.. idle 20W, at listening level 23W.
The volume dial was at about 5-10%. These >100W amps confuse me, what are they for?
 
What's the output voltage and impedance specs for the tube preamp?
 
There are no special power amp requirements if you happen to have a tube preamp.

My Rotel RA-06 (70W@8) and Onkyo CR-L5 (50W@4) fill the room with ease.
If what you have goes loud enough, and there are no problems/defects, a different and/or more powerful amplifier won't make a difference.

If there is a "weakness", it's usually noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background). All active analog electronics generate SOME noise and sometimes it's audible. And of course, with more efficient speakers you are more likely to hear the noise. Unfortunately, there is more than one way to measure noise so you can't reliably compare specs. You need apples-to-apples measurements like you'll find on the reviews here.

I measured the power usage of the Rotel amp once.. idle 20W, at listening level 23W.
That doesn't tell you much for two reasons....
Music and other program material is dynamic, which means the peaks are higher than the average. The amplifier might be hitting 50W on the peaks but only averaging 5W.

Of course, that 5W average has to come from the wall power. All we can be sure of is that the average to your speakers can't be more than 23W.

It's the peaks that are limited by clipping (distortion).

The volume dial was at about 5-10%. These >100W amps confuse me, what are they for?
The dial doesn't tell you a whole lot either because we don't know how much voltage you're getting from your preamp, different sources are "hotter" than others, some songs are louder than others, we don't know the gain of the amplifier, and volume knobs aren't calibrated.

Generally, we want enough overall signal and gain that we can get full power out of the amplifier (if/when we want it) and that typically happens at less than 100% volume setting of the knob. Usually there is enough gain to over-drive the amplifier into distortion. We don't want to do that, but we want the ability to get full power with a variety of variables.

You typically don't need 100W for "home listening", but power requirements are exponential. Double the power is only 3dB louder and +6dB requires 4 times the power, etc. +3dB is "noticeable louder" but it's not a huge difference.

And, these days it's not expensive to build a 100W (or more) amplifier, especially with class-D, and it's a selling point!
 
. These >100W amps confuse me, what are they for?
Speakers have a sensitivity spec. The standard measurement is the sound pressure level in dB measured at 1 meter when the speaker is powered with 1 Watt. A mid-90s in dB is sensitive and low-80s need more powerful amplifiers. You can look up your speaker specifications, but if you are happy with 50 Watts now, you may not need over 100 Watts.

BTW those vintage amplifiers probably need all the capacitors replaced. The parts are a lot of labor to look up because capacitors have different shapes and lead layouts, and you want a good brand/series. The parts themselves are not expensive. The tech time to replace them will be expensive. Finding a local tech can be difficult.
 
What's the output voltage and impedance specs for the tube preamp?
Gain: about 10 times.
Input impedance: 47K
SNR: 90dB
Frequency response: 10Hz--30KHz
Distortion: ≤1%

First time I connected to the Onkyo (aux in) it turned off immediately, guess it was too much :oops:
Now with lower volume, everything is ok.

I also did a 1kHz at 100% volume from PC to preamp, I messured 11V AC at output on my multimeter.
 
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Speakers have a sensitivity spec. The standard measurement is the sound pressure level in dB measured at 1 meter when the speaker is powered with 1 Watt. A mid-90s in dB is sensitive and low-80s need more powerful amplifiers. You can look up your speaker specifications, but if you are happy with 50 Watts now, you may not need over 100 Watts.

BTW those vintage amplifiers probably need all the capacitors replaced. The parts are a lot of labor to look up because capacitors have different shapes and lead layouts, and you want a good brand/series. The parts themselves are not expensive. The tech time to replace them will be expensive. Finding a local tech can be difficult.
I have MB Quart 800 (1991), and I love them :)
  • Chassis:
    • Tieftöner: 2x 160 mm 4 Ohm
    • Hochtöner: 25 mm Titankalotte 6 Ohm
  • Belastbarkeit (Nenn-/Musikbetrieb): 90/170 Watt
  • Wirkungsgrad: 90 dB
  • Impedanz: 4 Ohm
And of course... the possible repair costs of vintage gear.. true.
Well if was cheap and fails, just get another one :p
 
Gain: about 10 times.
Input impedance: 47K
SNR: 90dB
Frequency response: 10Hz--30KHz
Distortion: ≤1%

First time I connected to the Onkyo (aux in) it turned off immediately, guess it was too much :oops:
Now with lower volume, everything is ok.

I also did a 1kHz at 100% volume from PC to preamp, I messured 11V AC at output on my multimeter.
You need the a OUTPUT impedance spec not input. Chances are it'll be too high to drive some class D amps without significant voltage loss.

Also a gain of 10 is quite a lot when you're using a 2 volt source like a DAC and your power amp only needs 2 volts input for full output. All this to say you'll barely be able to turn the volume control at all.

Also the preamp needs to be turned on and allowed to warm up before you turn on the power amp or you'll likely blow either the amp or the speakers. Turning off is the opposite. Power amp off first. Welcome to the world of tubes. Oh, and leaving it on all the time is a potential fire hazard and could get expensive in terms of worn out tubes.

A 90dB signal to noise ratio was probably measured with it turned off. Sounds like a total lie. It's almost not possible.
 
If it is an accurate copy of a Cary, then output impedance is 800 ohms. Not that I would trust that, but it could be so.

When Stereophile measured the SLP-98, it has an output impedance of 340 ohms (also spec'd by Cary as 800 ohms). However Cary used very small output coupling caps and that output impedance rose to 6800 ohms at 20 hz. Which will give a slightly rolled off and soft bass. Even more so with a low input impedance class D amp. Still if the OP wants to give it a try it isn't a ton of money. Who knows if it is an accurate copy or not.

I would let the OP know, if you want the sound of tubes, that doesn't come from the preamp. It comes from tube power amps. Any halfway good tube preamp sounds the same as a solid state preamp.

 
You need the a OUTPUT impedance spec not input. Chances are it'll be too high to drive some class D amps without significant voltage loss.

Also a gain of 10 is quite a lot when you're using a 2 volt source like a DAC and your power amp only needs 2 volts input for full output. All this to say you'll barely be able to turn the volume control at all.

Also the preamp needs to be turned on and allowed to warm up before you turn on the power amp or you'll likely blow either the amp or the speakers. Turning off is the opposite. Power amp off first. Welcome to the world of tubes. Oh, and leaving it on all the time is a potential fire hazard and could get expensive in terms of worn out tubes.

A 90dB signal to noise ratio was probably measured with it turned off. Sounds like a total lie. It's almost not possible.
I sent a msg to SENGTERBELLE about the output impedance.

Volume control works very nicely at the moment... maybe thanks to the additional Onkyo pot (middle setting).
My main source is LMS/Qobuz/PC with fixed 100% volume USB out to SMSL SU1.

I just turned preamp off and on... doesn't sound healthy for amp/speakers :oops:

And thanks for the fire warning... checking Ali for extinguishers now :p
 
Even more so with a low input impedance class D amp. Still if the OP wants to give it a try it isn't a ton of money. Who knows if it is an accurate copy or not.

I would let the OP know, if you want the sound of tubes, that doesn't come from the preamp. It comes from tube power amps. Any halfway good tube preamp sounds the same as a solid state preamp.
So you think a vintage amp could be a better match than a modern class D?
I can imagine that a tube amp has the biggest effect on sound, but preamps nothing??
Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me, but last night my favorite music seemed different, enjoyed it very much. :)
 
I can imagine that a tube amp has the biggest effect on sound, but preamps nothing??
The "tube sound" is normally associated with the output transformers needed to convert the high voltages down to lower voltages and high-enough current to drive speakers. Compared to a solid state power amplifier, it's very difficult to make such high power transformers be linear throughout the frequency range at power. Meanwhile, tube power amplifiers usually have higher output impedance which means the frequency response can be affected by the speaker impedance. All this adds up to a result which is not an accurate transform of the input, hence "tube sound".

These difficulties don't exist at line level so it's possible to build an accurate tube preamplifier.

In other words, you only get a true "tube sound" from tube power amplifiers.
 
So you think a vintage amp could be a better match than a modern class D?
I can imagine that a tube amp has the biggest effect on sound, but preamps nothing??
Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me, but last night my favorite music seemed different, enjoyed it very much. :)
If you are enjoying it fine. The tube sound is found in amps. Preamps with tubes can sound just the same as solid state. You can of course alter anything if you mess with it enough.
 
If you are enjoying it fine. The tube sound is found in amps. Preamps with tubes can sound just the same as solid state. You can of course alter anything if you mess with it enough.
I can really feel your enthusiasm for tube tech :D
But I understand your point, I'm a fan of digital/raw/pure. I hate treble/base controls, if you need them, your music sucks. ;)
I've had two amps with bad pots (non linear balance, remote volume control oversensitivity), so having a precise relay/resistor volume solution is already like a dream come true.
I mainly got this preamp to experiment. But I thought, if the tube part sucks, I can just switch the board out for something else from Ali.
 
I can really feel your enthusiasm for tube tech :D
But I understand your point, I'm a fan of digital/raw/pure. I hate treble/base controls, if you need them, your music sucks. ;)
I've had two amps with bad pots (non linear balance, remote volume control oversensitivity), so having a precise relay/resistor volume solution is already like a dream come true.
I mainly got this preamp to experiment. But I thought, if the tube part sucks, I can just switch the board out for something else from Ali.
Hey I've owned a good number of tube pieces. McIntosh tube preamps, power amps and tuners. Conrad-Johnson pre and power amps. VTL tube amps, Cary preamps, Fisher integrated tube amps, Dynaco power amps and tuners, and a few other obscurities like a Sansui vacuum tube receiver. I used tube amps for nearly a decade on Quad ESL-63 speakers I owned. I've known people with lots of other tube gear.

I'm not against it. There are myths grown up around it, and the gear other than power amps when done well sounds pretty much transparent. Now you have various people making preamps and DACs with tube outputs where they try and dirty it up with the idea 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion is tube sound. They are wrong. You just end up with dirty sound.
 
I hate treble/base controls,
Why? Do you hate all DSP, or just treble/bass controls?
if you need them, your music sucks. ;)
What if your music is well recorded and it's your room that sucks? Do you just suffer through it, or adjust some settings?
 
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Who said that class D power amps are all at the low side of input impedance?
Here's what 1200as has:

imp.PNG


(pro/stage gear need to adapt to anything)
 
SENGTERBELLE replied to the output impedance question: 50K
 
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