In DAC, Anything audible but unable to be measured(so far)?

[solderdude]

The Weiliang E600 is a nice looking TPA6102 amplifier, certainly for the price.
Would get rid of the Muses.

 

[LaLaLard]

That's not the point, the directivity we perceive comes from the angle the sounds hit the head and above all Pinnae (Concha mostly) and the phase and amplitude differences that causes is what the brain uses. The brain knows from experiences how to interpret the (altered in a specific way) sound waves,

It is a known fact that not everyone listening to binaural recordings can recreate an around the head experience. A bit more 'spatial' yes, but not anything remotely like you get with speakers.

DSP can do a lot of things but miracles are not one of them

And yes, I really, really listened to quite a few binaural recordings and for me they did not work. Only 'the haircut' gave me some surround sensation. I hear the 'space' in the recordings but it does not come from meters in front of me.

Yes the haircut was a better one, and although very famous among binaural listeners but still NOT A GOOD BINAURAL RECORDING.

I'm a big fan of binaural recording but sadly found 95% of the claimed binaural recording sucks. And none of my friends could hear sound direction, not just me.

The reason not many people are interested in binaural recording is because they haven't heard one yet...most of these recordings, I don't know why, are just mixed to sound weird.

I however, through the years, have collected quite some tracks to be played through headphone with good result.

With these tracks whoever I've tested and with what ever headphone, even earphones, can definitely tell if sound is coming from front or behind, above or below.

I'm new to this forum so not sure if music pieces can be uploaded or not. I suppose no.

send me your email address by PM and I'll send it to you straight. I guarantee you will be much more impressed than the haircut piece.

 

[FireLion]

The Weiliang E600 is a nice looking TPA6102 amplifier, certainly for the price.
Would get rid of the Muses.

Yep right now I have 4562's in and ordered some OPA1692's from hungary. There is a newer OPA1656 I am trying to get my hands on. I am considering putting a socket on the D30 so I can swap out opamps in that.

This opamp looks quiet the thing and much less than what more well known opamp makers are charging. One opamp US based maker wanted $60 and that was heavily discounted for a simialr looking opamp.

 

[onion]

Partly agree. The points you just raised are not relevant to the original post but I have also considered this before.



As for speakers, it is much more complicated because of crossfeed. YOU WONT BE ABLE TO FEED YOUR LEFT AND RIGHT EARS EXACTLY WHAT THE LEFT MIC AND RIGHT MIC RECORDED, BASED ON THE CURRENT TECHNOLOGY.

Thats why I used the word "theoretically", because it is not impossible that in the future, with advanced acoustic technology, you might be able to make your left and right ear hear different signal, the way they are different in real life performance. Cuz after all, it's just left and right eardrums.

At the moment, it Is not yet possible. but Headphones are getting closer on that.

There are technologies that do this already for both headphones and speakers in exactly the way you describe. The reason I started contributing to this thread was my experience with something that does exactly this. And as you previously mentioned, the claims of high-end DACs do not stack up with respect to spatial resolution. Filters that cancel the cross-talk (so right ear does not hear left speaker and vice versa) in real-time, tracking head movements do work. The effect is so significant that I'm getting rid of a bunch of audio equipment where improvements are minimal or illusory compared to this.

That is why I brought up the topic of spatial resolution on this thread. This is something that is clearly audible but not measured as commonly as other audio parameters. Most DACs to not attempt the 'theoretical' cross-talk cancellation you reference. Because the effect is so large, obvious and subjectively beneficial to listening enjoyment, I do think this will become an area that more and more physicists will investigate in their quest to replicate music performances perfectly.

 

[LaLaLard]

There are technologies that do this already for both headphones and speakers in exactly the way you describe. The reason I started contributing to this thread was my experience with something that does exactly this. And as you previously mentioned, the claims of high-end DACs do not stack up with respect to spatial resolution. Filters that cancel the cross-talk (so right ear does not hear left speaker and vice versa) in real-time, tracking head movements do work. The effect is so significant that I'm getting rid of a bunch of audio equipment where improvements are minimal or illusory compared to this.

That is why I brought up the topic of spatial resolution on this thread. This is something that is clearly audible but not measured as commonly as other audio parameters. Most DACs to not attempt the 'theoretical' cross-talk cancellation you reference. Because the effect is so large, obvious and subjectively beneficial to listening enjoyment, I do think this will become an area that more and more physicists will investigate in their quest to replicate music performances perfectly.

This is something new to me. I do not know the technology you described is readily available, nor have I had any chance testing it. Although haven't tried by reading your post my impression is this is indeed possible, but acoustically tracking your head part, is a bit shocking.

Why I felt shocking is I knew there are technology making directional sound already but my impression is now in 2019:
1. still unable to completely cancel out the sound for one ear. If that is achievable now it would mean you play the left speaker and your right ear hears nothing ?!
2. still unable to work on multiple people.
3. I've heard some technology which is able to creating a quiet zone in a noisy pub by applying canceling filter. But it is not magical to the point that each people inside the zone can hear different thing in left/right ear?

I did think one day we would have devices projecting exactly the sound we would be hearing in real life to our ears to simulate the whole sound stage and we would also have devices projecting light into our eyes letting our eyes see different things without wearing 3d glasses --- aka naked eye 3D.

However my impression was like naked eye 3d would be commercially available in 10 years (Nintendo 3ds is a nice try but too limiting. Nvidia got another eye tracking screen like 10 years ago but I haven't seen any update after that so let's say another 10 years might make the wonder) while the speaker 3d would be like 50 years...

 

[Shadrach]

There are a lot of Hi Fi type forums about. Why anyone could possibly be interested in what so and so heard through his/her equipment is way beyond my understanding. It seems many trust some of these so called reviewers. Even on ASR there are people who obviously read the shite Stereophile pump out and think it's wonderful.
I don't know amim from Adam. I'm not remotely interested in what he thinks about a product. I'm not really interested in what all the backup 'experts' have to say either. As is often the way with experts they can't see the wood from the trees and you got long meaningless posts where you're supposed to be impressed with their knowledge. That's Hi Fi boards for you.
amirm does test stuff. He also publishes these tests. That's all that matters. Perhaps there are elements missing from the tests but are these elements likely to effect what you hear?
Over and over again it has been proven that in general all those fine details that the objectivists are interested don't mean shit when you, or I, set the kit up and listen.
Yeah I know some say they can hear them. Yup I've heard the trained listener arguments. No I don't think many audiophiles can hear anything like what they claim to be able to. Some 'reviewers' who must have listened to thousands of pieces of electronics fall flat on their faces when faced with a fair test.
Like any forum ASR has it's faults.
amirm is only human but he does a job that needs doing in the world of Hi Fi while most of those who criticise him don't do a thing to inform people of much more than the size of their ego.

 

[Blumlein 88]

This is something new to me. I do not know the technology you described is readily available, nor have I had any chance testing it. Although haven't tried by reading your post my impression is this is indeed possible, but acoustically tracking your head part, is a bit shocking.

Why I felt shocking is I knew there are technology making directional sound already but my impression is now in 2019:
1. still unable to completely cancel out the sound for one ear. If that is achievable now it would mean you play the left speaker and your right ear hears nothing ?!
2. still unable to work on multiple people.
3. I've heard some technology which is able to creating a quiet zone in a noisy pub by applying canceling filter. But it is not magical to the point that each people inside the zone can hear different thing in left/right ear?

I did think one day we would have devices projecting exactly the sound we would be hearing in real life to our ears to simulate the whole sound stage and we would also have devices projecting light into our eyes letting our eyes see different things without wearing 3d glasses --- aka naked eye 3D.

However my impression was like naked eye 3d would be commercially available in 10 years (Nintendo 3ds is a nice try but too limiting. Nvidia got another eye tracking screen like 10 years ago but I haven't seen any update after that so let's say another 10 years might make the wonder) while the speaker 3d would be like 50 years...

The Smyth Realizer has been around a few years. Expensive, but works according to those who have tried it. It tracks head movement. And I think gives you the sound of hearing speakers. There are a couple other similar offerings.

There are at least a couple bits of DSP that promise 3D audio partly by cancelling speaker cross talk when listening over speakers. Some have online demo's and some have the software available.

Of course do we want speaker crosstalk in headphones or do we want complete separation in speakers like headphones. I suppose the big deal with cancelling speaker crosstalk is that binaural recordings sound right over speakers then. And cross talk in headphones means music mastered for speaker use sounds right over headphones. One of the big deals in making headphones sound more natural is head tracking to try and keep the music coming from the same space as you move your head about. The fixed unmovable when you move your head imaging is a giant message to your brain, "hey this isn't real at all."

 

[flipflop]

And cross talk in headphones means music mastered for speaker use sounds right over headphones.

I've been meaning to try out some crosstalk DSP for a while now. Peace offers Chu Moy and Jan Meier. Do you know which is the best option?

 

[Sergei]

Why I felt shocking is I knew there are technology making directional sound already but my impression is now in 2019:
1. still unable to completely cancel out the sound for one ear. If that is achievable now it would mean you play the left speaker and your right ear hears nothing ?!

I believe the state of the art cancellation is around 25 dB. Not "completely".

2. still unable to work on multiple people.

I've seen an account of a phased array working for two people.

3. I've heard some technology which is able to creating a quiet zone in a noisy pub by applying canceling filter. But it is not magical to the point that each people inside the zone can hear different thing in left/right ear?

Same practical restriction of about 25 dB attenuation. Same with active noise suppression in the cars. Useful, yet not as comprehensive as it was hyped some time back. I guess this technology is currently in the Trough of Disillusionment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle).

 

[onion]

I believe the state of the art cancellation is around 25 dB. Not "completely".


I've seen an account of a phased array working for two people.


Same practical restriction of about 25 dB attenuation. Same with active noise suppression in the cars. Useful, yet not as comprehensive as it was hyped some time back. I guess this technology is currently in the Trough of Disillusionment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle).

25 dB more than enough. In fact in my room with poor factors for this technology (in-wall speakers, somewhat lively room), the level is under 10dB. This still has a big impact on perception (for me)

 

[Sergei]

In fact in my room with poor factors for this technology (in-wall speakers, somewhat lively room), the level is under 10dB. This still has a big impact on perception (for me)

Good point. Doesn't have to be perfect to be appreciated.

 

[solderdude]

I've been meaning to try out some crosstalk DSP for a while now. Peace offers Chu Moy and Jan Meier. Do you know which is the best option?

You mean cross-feed. I have experimented with it (analog not DSP) and while it makes headphone listening less fatiguing it also dulls the sound.
That can be compensated somewhat though.
I reckon DSP crossfeed is better than analog.
I don't use it any more. Does work wonders for old beatles albums. Best effect was on HD800. The king of instrument separation for me.
Crossfeed makes the soundstage more narrow, not forward as what some seem to promise.

Have tried some 'widening' software but that too, while being impressive at first has some really unnatural effects.

 

[flipflop]

You mean cross-feed. I have experimented with it (analog not DSP) and while it makes headphone listening less fatiguing it also dulls the sound.
That can be compensated somewhat though.
I reckon DSP crossfeed is better than analog.
I don't use it any more. Does work wonders for old beatles albums. Best effect was on HD800. The king of instrument separation for me.
Crossfeed makes the soundstage more narrow, not forward as what some seem to promise.

Have tried some 'widening' software but that too, while being impressive at first has some really unnatural effects.

Yes, I meant crossfeed, thanks. Thought they were synonymous until I looked it up.
I don't mean to be rude, but I'm not terribly interested in personal anecdotes. I'm just looking for the option that makes the most sense theoretically. I'll make up my own mind about the sound once I know what to start with
I realize this is a complicated topic. Maybe it deserves its own thread.

 

[solderdude]

Theoretically DSP plugins makes the most sense.
It's something one must experience themselves.
Some swear by it, others don't like it. As with everything in life.

I guess you won't be sharing your personal anecdotes about it either then
When everyone keeps their personal experiences/findings for themselves what would we learn ?

 

[flipflop]

Theoretically DSP plugins makes the most sense.
It's something one must experience themselves.
Some swear by it, others don't like it. As with everything in life.

I guess you won't be sharing your personal anecdotes about it either then
When everyone keeps their personal experiences/findings for themselves what would we learn ?

I haven't even consider analogue. Seems like too much of a hassle. That's why I asked about Chu Moy vs Jan Meier. One of the two options in question must be theoretically more sound than the other. At least that's how I approach the issue.

I guess I wouldn't mind sharing my experiences if someone asked for them, but concluding whether applying digital crossfeed makes music sound better or worse would require some extensive ABX blind testing I'm not prepared to do.

 

[solderdude]

The difference is VERY obvious.. a matter of taste.
Only have experience with analog hardware X-feed.
I really can't tell you who is more 'right' and certainly not in the digital domain.

 

[flipflop]

The difference is VERY obvious.. a matter of taste.
Only have experience with analog hardware X-feed.

The Wikipedia page describes the same thing as you did in your first post:

An analog crossfeed is usually implemented by mixing the left and right channels together to some extent. Since such crossfeeds do not typically correct the delay between the added information and the original signal, they simply reduce the amount of stereo information available, centering the image in the stereo field.

DSP crossfeed takes more factors into account, which, I assume, makes it better:

A digital, or DSP-type, crossfeed is typically more sophisticated, mixing an amount of signal from one channel to the other, delaying the signal to mimic interaural time differences and applying other characteristics of head-related transfer functions (HRTFs) to mimic the changes between the left and right ears.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossfeed

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't care for crossfeed either in the versions I've used. Digital works better, but it's not there for me. Same for the cross talk cancellation in speakers, but that seems closer to working than crossfeed in headphones. I've not used a Smyth Realizer.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Meier crossfeed is available as a plug in for Foobar. Bauer stereo to binaural which uses some version of crossfeed is available in VLC. There are others. Stereo widening is usually some variation of mid-side processing. I've done that for myself, and sometimes it is better, sometimes it is not. Depends upon the recording.

So far in my experience nothing beats good speakers in a moderately large or large room.

 

[solderdude]

Yes the haircut was a better one, and although very famous among binaural listeners but still NOT A GOOD BINAURAL RECORDING.
......
send me your email address by PM and I'll send it to you straight. I guarantee you will be much more impressed than the haircut piece.

My problem with binaural recordings is that most music I like is never recorded that way.
There are also 'spatialized' versions of normally recorded music I like floating around.
These don't do it for me either. I guess my ears are hopeless with headphones.
With highly directional (electrostatic) speakers I am able to get a fantastic 'image' with depth and width with pinpoint precision so my brain seems to function. Just not with headphones.
I do get very precise imaging (with EQ'ed HD800) but ... between and to the left and right inside my head.
There is one recording that manages to turn my head as I thought I heard someone speaking to me from the left rear side (Pink Floyd song I believe)