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Ifi..........

BigTy120

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Jan 20, 2025
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Greetings friends today is January 20th and it is my birthday and I finally decided to become a member after reading various threads and articles on this site. However I have a question for all of you. When I look over a lot of the Q&A on here I noticed that no one recommends iFi audio products. So my question is is there a particular reason why? I asked this question because it seems that the older I'm getting the more confused I think I'm getting about what exactly are we all using the term warm sounding for and with. I read somewhere that the topping D30 Pro and the topping L7 amp were a warm sounding DAC and amp however upon testing them against all my other topping products they sound the same as any other topping product. I've heard the same thing about other companies but the two companies that I can think of that do make things that sound warm to me I never hear mentioned anywhere and that is xduoo and ifi. Is there a level of detail that I am missing somewhere that these two companies are never mentioned when we give advice to others about something that sounds warm or Lush? Please help me out because I for one am tired of getting the same repeated advice to me to get a topping or smsl or some product of that nature that never sounds warm or Lush to me. So guys I need your help if I am wrong on this please give me all the information you can to correct me if I'm right on this let me know why thank you
 
We would like to help you, but first we need some information. Since the words that you used have different meanings to different people, please tell us exactly how you define "warm" and "lush", so that we do not misunderstand you and you not not misunderstand us.

Thank you. :)
 
I noticed that no one recommends iFi audio products. So my question is is there a particular reason why?
Personally, I think that iFi uses a lot of deceptive marketing that exploits expectation bias, FOMO etc for greater profit.

All that for products that, in the end, aren't all that well designed or performant.

I would not give them my money.
 
the older I'm getting the more confused I think I'm getting about what exactly are we all using the term warm sounding for and with.
This may be a sign of getting wiser with age... "Warm" sound has no single definition and people use it in all kinds of ways.
no one recommends iFi audio products
Amir did recommend a phono stage of theirs, but they don't get recommended a lot because the performance is usually just OK for the money.


Bottom line, if you want warm/lush sound, forget about DACs and amps entirely, they're not supposed to have a sound of their own at all.

Better to look for speakers / headphones that have a smooth midrange frequency response, not too much treble, and low distortion. That should get you closer to a "lush" sound, but since these words don't have an exact definition, you'll need to do some listening tests to be sure.
 
Hi, welcome and Happy Birthday :)

If possible, try to avoid terms that are difficult to define and could really mean anything (warm, lush). Equipment that is accurate is nice: not adding to or taking any thing away from the sound.

IFi tend to make unsubstantiated, subjective, claims and models that have been measured haven't been great.
The phono amps are an exception (phono 2 and 3 anyway): not bad at all - not great, but not bad. I have one and I'm happy.

Look for measurements, try to ignore subjective reviews, and life gets a lot clearer.

As others have said: some speakers roll off the high frequencies or boost the mid-bass - that could be described as 'warm', to me, at least.

I'd prefer to add electronics that let you modify your sound - DSP or PEQ - or do some listening to accurate equipment and see if you can learn to like it :)
 
I fully understand that what im about to write people are going to laugh and make harsh rude comments so here it goes.... If mattress has a standard scale rating of 1 thru 10 1 being the cloud soft to 10 concrete floor.. Now if the audio HiFI world could adapt a standard scale like mattress i think it would help not only new people but everyone else ..the scale would be 1 being extremely warm... 5 being neutral....10 sterile,analytical. so when these youtubers are reviewing gear they can be held to something beside just there word and how many of us bought something they recommended and it was nothing like they said it was.. so with the scale rating system i think we could have a better understanding and wont have as much buyer's remorse.. As bigty was saying when you read the topping L70 amp is slight warm sound .. wouldn't be easier to say the topping L70 is on the scale of 4 to 5 depends on your headphones ... and thats the other thing that the industray has to do is to make the headphones adapt this scale also so it would be eaiser for new people and others to match it to the right amp and dac system .. because how many of us bought a amp recommend and paired it to your headphones and the treble was harsh, bright, sibilance issue... so would it be eaiser to have a scale that read product A headphones was scale to 7 that way we knew that they would work with what we got or they would not work at all and we need to look at something else... so this debate of warm sounding,neutral sounding,bright sounding would be eaiser for everyone to understand and buying gear more simple .
 
I fully understand that what im about to write people are going to laugh and make harsh rude comments so here it goes.... If mattress has a standard scale rating of 1 thru 10 1 being the cloud soft to 10 concrete floor.. Now if the audio HiFI world could adapt a standard scale like mattress i think it would help not only new people but everyone else ..the scale would be 1 being extremely warm... 5 being neutral....10 sterile,analytical. so when these youtubers are reviewing gear they can be held to something beside just there word and how many of us bought something they recommended and it was nothing like they said it was.. so with the scale rating system i think we could have a better understanding and wont have as much buyer's remorse.. As bigty was saying when you read the topping L70 amp is slight warm sound .. wouldn't be easier to say the topping L70 is on the scale of 4 to 5 depends on your headphones ... and thats the other thing that the industray has to do is to make the headphones adapt this scale also so it would be eaiser for new people and others to match it to the right amp and dac system .. because how many of us bought a amp recommend and paired it to your headphones and the treble was harsh, bright, sibilance issue... so would it be eaiser to have a scale that read product A headphones was scale to 7 that way we knew that they would work with what we got or they would not work at all and we need to look at something else... so this debate of warm sounding,neutral sounding,bright sounding would be eaiser for everyone to understand and buying gear more simple .
Such a scale is an impossibility as warm, neutral, sterile, analytical mean different things to different people.

What would help break the circle of confusion would be the proliferation of controlled listening tests, as that would make reviewers and subsequently their readers realize that 95% of electronics that they previously perceived as warm, bright, analytical etc, now could no longer be told apart.
 
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Such a scale is an impossibility as warm, neutral, sterile, analytical mean different things to different people.
I propose that "Gassy" is used to describe an audio perception. It's both meaningless and accurate at the same time.
 
I fully understand that what im about to write people are going to laugh and make harsh rude comments so here it goes.... If mattress has a standard scale rating of 1 thru 10 1 being the cloud soft to 10 concrete floor.. Now if the audio HiFI world could adapt a standard scale like mattress i think it would help not only new people but everyone else ..the scale would be 1 being extremely warm... 5 being neutral....10 sterile,analytical. so when these youtubers are reviewing gear they can be held to something beside just there word and how many of us bought something they recommended and it was nothing like they said it was.. so with the scale rating system i think we could have a better understanding and wont have as much buyer's remorse.. As bigty was saying when you read the topping L70 amp is slight warm sound .. wouldn't be easier to say the topping L70 is on the scale of 4 to 5 depends on your headphones ... and thats the other thing that the industray has to do is to make the headphones adapt this scale also so it would be eaiser for new people and others to match it to the right amp and dac system .. because how many of us bought a amp recommend and paired it to your headphones and the treble was harsh, bright, sibilance issue... so would it be eaiser to have a scale that read product A headphones was scale to 7 that way we knew that they would work with what we got or they would not work at all and we need to look at something else... so this debate of warm sounding,neutral sounding,bright sounding would be eaiser for everyone to understand and buying gear more simple .
I can see the thought behind this, but as @staticV3 says it's a tall order if not impossible.

First you'd have to get people to agree on what actual characteristics of the signal are "warm" and which are "analytical" or "sterile". We have not made a lot of progress on that in the past 30 years.

Next you'd have to quantify their impact on how much they make people perceive warmth, etc. Doable but would take serious testing, which nobody is eager to pay for.

Lastly you'd need to get manufacturers to test their own equipment against these standards and publish the ratings. Some manufacturers are allergic to testing of this nature because their gear isn't as good as they'd like you to think.

But actually, doing all of this would achieve essentially nothing.

The real bottom line is this: Amps, Dacs, and electronics in general are not supposed to be warm, sterile, or anything like that. They're supposed to be "straight wires with gain" with no sound of their own, and in fact many of them basically are. We call it "transparent to the source" and today most good gear is, in most usage scenarios.

The reviewers who give them subjective ratings on tonality are almost always hearing the results of cognitive biases, not the gear itself.

As StaticV3 said, 99.9% of these heard differences will go away in blind testing because they're not caused by the gear. The remaining 0.1% is not worth worrying about in the least.
 
I'm old enough to remember that when I listened to music it moved me. It gave me an emotional reaction. It wasn't cold and sterilized. Bass hit you in the chest, vocals were clear and present. Even 80s music sounded good. Now everything I hear is cold. Everyone suggests EQ. And I've done so, but I remember a time when I didn't have to do such things.
 
Remember the old Maxell ads..... That was me with cerwin Vega speakers a Sony cd player, a Phillips dcc player and a pioneer, Kenwood or Yamaha receiver. My friends and I recently got back into the headphone game. And man are things different. The 7506 was my go to headphones. I still have my original pair and they still work! However with them I used to have a pair of Techniques and Panasonic dj headphones that shook my head as I listened to music. It wasn't muddy, but it wasn't cold either. So I guess I'm truly wondering what happened to the gear. When I asked about ifi and xduoo it's because those 2 are the closest to the sounds I remember. When I think warm I think tube like, bass, vocals you can feel. Like a jazz club back home in NYC. So I just want clarification on the terms used now to describe sound, because somewhere in time, the meanings and terms I used to use have changed.
 
What happened? Cold? Likely what you are hearing is more neutral/ transparent than the older setups.
 
@BigTy120 The electronics reviewed on ASR are judged on the input matching the output just amplified or traduced to sound waves. In past decades the design of many speakers emphasized the mids and mid-bass frequencies because of the technology and that many designers liked that sound, missing on the radio. As solid state advanced over tubes and digital front ends over analog, precision in I/O became the norm and some "coloration" disappeared. Speakers too advanced with stronger and more precise magnet motors, more defuse tweeters with emphasis on measurements in design and wider frequency range, so it is rare to find older speakers with today's precision. The gain is in realism. As for music it changes with the generations and the advent of the internet opened access to musicians and music choices. Long story short there is wide variety that can be had by using a streaming service and I'm sure you find some you like, enjoy the ease of use, and used to the realism, forgetting the old sound. The advice at ASR is usually very good on quality and value but take some time to do your research. So far the crowd posting above are savvy regulars, so you are in good company for good advice.
 
@BigTy120 The electronics reviewed on ASR are judged on the input matching the output just amplified or traduced to sound waves. In past decades the design of many speakers emphasized the mids and mid-bass frequencies because of the technology and that many designers liked that sound, missing on the radio. As solid state advanced over tubes and digital front ends over analog, precision in I/O became the norm and some "coloration" disappeared. Speakers too advanced with stronger and more precise magnet motors, more defuse tweeters with emphasis on measurements in design and wider frequency range, so it is rare to find older speakers with today's precision. The gain is in realism. As for music it changes with the generations and the advent of the internet opened access to musicians and music choices. Long story short there is wide variety that can be had by using a streaming service and I'm sure you find some you like, enjoy the ease of use, and used to the realism, forgetting the old sound. The advice at ASR is usually very good on quality and value but take some time to do your research. So far the crowd posting above are savvy regulars, so you are in good company for good advice.
Thank you.
 
Now, i have another question. I recently got the he6se v2 for x-mas. the topping system im using is the d50 mark iii with the L70 amp. It drives my other cans just fine. ( i had: 7506 2 pair, 400se, t50rp mk3, 4xx,Deva, Sundara, Sundara closed back, R9, MDR1, and Edition XS.)Most of them have been rehomed to others and currently i have the LCD-GX, Maxwells, m1070, and now the he6se v2. I would like a amp to drive the he6se v2. The L70 cant. I start getting sound at -8.0 db and thats about it. Can anyone give me an amp that can run these?
 
Their Neo idsd 2 is very versatile, powerful and ok price for a non-chinese product
 
(...) Now everything I hear is cold.
wrong hardware in action?!? I am 56 and counting, my gear is not expensive, or fancy, still I would describe its sound as TRANSPARENT.
Maybe your past experiences have been with devices that were enhancing the bass? or the mid-range/voice section? Or adding "pleasant" distortion (read: tubes involved...) so that now, a system resolving the very plain characteristics of the recording may sound "sterile", "dry", "cold"...
I mean... this is it (and should have always been, but sadly hadn't...)
 
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