dap with top resolution and well extended treble,not bassy

[leonasj500]

Some time ago, several people and I compared DAPs with each other and with desktop setups. We compared various DAPs from all price ranges, from around €200 to over €4000, from Pioneer/Onkyo, Sony, Shanling, Fiio, A&K, etc.
Even an employee of one of the companies was taken aback when he heard the €4000 RRP device compared to the Pioneer XDP-30R / Onkyo DP-S1 (completely blinded). I would have paid at most €100 more for the metal casing of the €4000 device.
In this test, no significant differences were discernible between the different DAC chip manufacturers, even for me, an AK4499 fanboy.

If these sonic differences actually exist and are actually audible, it has nothing to do with the DAC chip used. Unless, of course, it's a very poor DAC chip, but these manufacturers don't use such things.

Such sonic differences can only be created by a DSP, the DSP and sound functions of the DAC chips, or by interfering with the analog signal.
Do you really want a filter in such a source device that is then applied to every song played and changes the music?
To me, such a thing is a very stupid idea, because you can't recover lost information.

but even google shows sabre dac sounds brigter vs akm ones.

 

[leonasj500]

Some time ago, several people and I compared DAPs with each other and with desktop setups. We compared various DAPs from all price ranges, from around €200 to over €4000, from Pioneer/Onkyo, Sony, Shanling, Fiio, A&K, etc.
Even an employee of one of the companies was taken aback when he heard the €4000 RRP device compared to the Pioneer XDP-30R / Onkyo DP-S1 (completely blinded). I would have paid at most €100 more for the metal casing of the €4000 device.
In this test, no significant differences were discernible between the different DAC chip manufacturers, even for me, an AK4499 fanboy.

If these sonic differences actually exist and are actually audible, it has nothing to do with the DAC chip used. Unless, of course, it's a very poor DAC chip, but these manufacturers don't use such things.

Such sonic differences can only be created by a DSP, the DSP and sound functions of the DAC chips, or by interfering with the analog signal.
Do you really want a filter in such a source device that is then applied to every song played and changes the music?
To me, such a thing is a very stupid idea, because you can't recover lost information.

im treid sony nw-wma1m2 dsee filters and not liked as original not changed sound more listen . but returned back sony as it sounds identical to astell kern sr25 ii at volume im listen normally.not at low or big volume. at big volumes changes sound. so, sr25ii at louder sounds starts brighten or hissy.

 

[Joe Smith]

Just buy what you want! The things you are worried about are not what most people here are going to have opinions about. We’re going by measurements that can be replicated.

 

[Curupira]

but even google shows sabre dac sounds brigter vs akm ones.

Google AI just repeats what most people on audio forums tell, the myth that ESS is more "digital" and AKM is more "analog", even though almost all of them have measurements below the human audibility threshold, with flat FRs, linearity, etc.

As people have told you, there are no tangible differences in regards to sound between well built DAPs, only features like LDAC, internal memory, battery etc. Choose the one that serves you better without obsessing over microdynamics, detail, transient reproduction, etc., because that's just marketing talk and audiophile folklore that people perpetuate because they are under cognitive biases and/or don't know better.

EDIT: In regards to "tube" DACs and "Class A" and "Class AB" DAPs, that's just further fluff. The tubes manufacturers like Cayin are using behave almost like transistors because of the DAP format: you can't have a lot of microphonics and the internal circuit is limited in terms of voltage (so you can't just shove a NOS tube in there and hope it works). Audibly, all of these "features" are incremental at best, sounding more or less the same with just the change in battery drain. A smartphone engineer outside of the audio world would laugh out loud when hearing DAP companies' plans of implementing Class A into a battery powered mobile device, it makes very little sense.

 

[Roland68]

but even google shows sabre dac sounds brigter vs akm ones.

Precisely because the idiotic AI interprets the opinion of the audiophile world as true.
The more people believe in AI, the faster the dumbing down of humanity progresses.

Any kind of sounding does not come from the DAC chips. If the DAC chip produces a different sound than intended when converting 1 and 0, then there is a defect. Because there are no deviations in the interpretation of 0 and 1.

Do you want a DAC chip to uncontrollably change or manipulate the music you hear? Then the original information in the music is irretrievably lost.
Because change is only possible by removing or adding information.

 

[Talisman]

Personally, if you feel like everyone here is telling you strange things and that it is impossible that they all sound practically the same then you should listen to them with your headphones and your ears and choose which sound you prefer.
Just like in the matrix, some are not ready for the truth

 

[leonasj500]

Just buy what you want! The things you are worried about are not what most people here are going to have opinions about. We’re going by measurements that can be replicated.

im more lean to ibasso dx260mk ii for light,small size with 5' screen,android13,SNR 134dB,6gb ram,128gb rom,bypass battery, just dont know if it has wake up screen with double touch as has my current shanling M7. another good light small dap is sp3000m,but its not open android,as i like scrolling in web,facbook,etc in bed vial listen music. some dap with 6' screen too big,or heave and not portable.

 

[leonasj500]

Personally, if you feel like everyone here is telling you strange things and that it is impossible that they all sound practically the same then you should listen to them with your headphones and your ears and choose which sound you prefer.
Just like in the matrix, some are not ready for the truth

im got sp3000m and first day im was impressed by sound. but after few days compared to my shanling M7 and both sound identically. so,looks i can return sp3000m to amazon/ i have 14days to return goods. also one quaestion-why i can listen shanling m7 with max volume ,but cant from sp3000m? at volume 110 of out 150 sp3000m starts too loud with maybe hiss and ears starts pain. with m7 at max volume no pain.same song. its mean sp3000m has bad or lower power amp? looking keep one dap.one sell. but i dont like or need roon .

 

[solderdude]

M7 = Single-ended 400 mW@32Ohm // 920mW@32Ohm Balanced
SP3000M = Unbalanced 140mW@32Ohm // Balanced 150mW@32Ohm


The max. output voltage the SP3000M can reach (in 300ohm loads) = 6.3V (balanced in 300ohm) which would be the max. volume setting
The M7 can supply 5.4V in 32ohm balanced so with just mild clipping at full volume (1.3dB from the top is clipped).
Because the SP3000M output stage has a low output current capability it clips hard (9.1dB from the top is clipped) at 2.2V, so well below max. volume setting and clipping usually does not sound pleasant.

So the M7 can go 8dB louder in 32ohm loads on balanced out.
I would return the SP3000(M) and keep using the, better suited to drive low impedance headphones and equally suited to drive high impedance headphones, M7

 

[leonasj500]

M7 = Single-ended 400 mW@32Ohm // 920mW@32Ohm Balanced
SP3000M = Unbalanced 140mW@32Ohm // Balanced 150mW@32Ohm


The max. output voltage the SP3000M can reach (in 300ohm loads) = 6.3V (balanced in 300ohm) which would be the max. volume setting
The M7 can supply 5.4V in 32ohm balanced so with just mild clipping at full volume (1.3dB from the top is clipped).
Because the SP3000M output stage has a low output current capability it clips hard (9.1dB from the top is clipped) at 2.2V, so well below max. volume setting and clipping usually does not sound pleasant.

So the M7 can go 8dB louder in 32ohm loads on balanced out.
I would return the SP3000(M) and keep using the, better suited to drive low impedance headphones and equally suited to drive high impedance headphones, M7

thank you. its nice answer. but how sp3000m balanced output be 150mW,if 6.3Vrms shows 6.3x6.3/32ohm= 1240mW? YES,im see return back to amazon sp3000m,as i dont need closed android. also does you know ibasso dx260 has real 1015mW output/ its light as sp3000m and then low weight cant have so big power/ im read dx260 has about 200mW at balanced output.correct?

 

[leonasj500]

M7 = Single-ended 400 mW@32Ohm // 920mW@32Ohm Balanced
SP3000M = Unbalanced 140mW@32Ohm // Balanced 150mW@32Ohm


The max. output voltage the SP3000M can reach (in 300ohm loads) = 6.3V (balanced in 300ohm) which would be the max. volume setting
The M7 can supply 5.4V in 32ohm balanced so with just mild clipping at full volume (1.3dB from the top is clipped).
Because the SP3000M output stage has a low output current capability it clips hard (9.1dB from the top is clipped) at 2.2V, so well below max. volume setting and clipping usually does not sound pleasant.

So the M7 can go 8dB louder in 32ohm loads on balanced out.
I would return the SP3000(M) and keep using the, better suited to drive low impedance headphones and equally suited to drive high impedance headphones, M7

also,first day sp3000m was very hot ,and after burn of few days now its only sligftly warm ,and first days battery fast drain,now works long period after charge. why its so warm was?

 

[voodooless]

but how sp3000m balanced output be 150mW,if 6.3Vrms shows 6.3x6.3/32ohm= 1240mW?

In this case, it's current limited, so with low impedance headphones, you will not get the 1.2W out of it. Probably you'll have more luck with high-impeance headphones.

 

[leonasj500]

In this case, it's current limited, so with low impedance headphones, you will not get the 1.2W out of it. Probably you'll have more luck with high-impeance headphones.

so,shanling M7 shows 900mW output at 32ohm,and if im use 40ohm headphones,it will be about 600mW? if sp3000m 6.3Vrms output at 32ohm,thenn with 40ohm hreadphones it will be 6.3x6.3/40 =990mW? so,why another user replied sp3000m has only 150mW at balanced output? look he wrote
M7 = Single-ended 400 mW@32Ohm // 920mW@32Ohm Balanced
SP3000M = Unbalanced 140mW@32Ohm // Balanced 150mW@32Ohm

 

[leonasj500]

M7 = Single-ended 400 mW@32Ohm // 920mW@32Ohm Balanced
SP3000M = Unbalanced 140mW@32Ohm // Balanced 150mW@32Ohm


The max. output voltage the SP3000M can reach (in 300ohm loads) = 6.3V (balanced in 300ohm) which would be the max. volume setting
The M7 can supply 5.4V in 32ohm balanced so with just mild clipping at full volume (1.3dB from the top is clipped).
Because the SP3000M output stage has a low output current capability it clips hard (9.1dB from the top is clipped) at 2.2V, so well below max. volume setting and clipping usually does not sound pleasant.

So the M7 can go 8dB louder in 32ohm loads on balanced out.
I would return the SP3000(M) and keep using the, better suited to drive low impedance headphones and equally suited to drive high impedance headphones, M7

how you convert 6.3Vrms output to 150mW? with ier-z1r same audible sound im listen M7 20out of 50 max.and sp3m 70 out of 150 max. so,think near same output mW if m7 has 900mw ,then sp3km about 700nW? i had sony nw-wma1m2 eu version with 60mW output and listen 100-110 out of 120 max volume. sent fast it back to seller.

 

[solderdude]

how you convert 6.3Vrms output to 150mW?

Due to the low impedance (assuming 32ohm) the current limiter will limit the output voltage well before 6.3V and thus the output will be lower.

IERZ1R = 40ohm so output voltages will be somewhat higher than with 32ohm but not by much.

The 'volume steps' are no indication of output voltages.

 

[Roland68]

so,shanling M7 shows 900mW output at 32ohm,and if im use 40ohm headphones,it will be about 600mW? if sp3000m 6.3Vrms output at 32ohm,thenn with 40ohm hreadphones it will be 6.3x6.3/40 =990mW? so,why another user replied sp3000m has only 150mW at balanced output? look he wrote
M7 = Single-ended 400 mW@32Ohm // 920mW@32Ohm Balanced
SP3000M = Unbalanced 140mW@32Ohm // Balanced 150mW@32Ohm

Normally, the power of a balanced amplifier quadruples (assuming the same power amplifiers).
However, only if there is enough power and enough voltage.
The SP3000M doesn't seem to have any more power in balanced mode than my old Pioneer XDP-30R at a tenth of the price, which is truly ridiculous.

 

[leonasj500]

Normally, the power of a balanced amplifier quadruples (assuming the same power amplifiers).
However, only if there is enough power and enough voltage.
The SP3000M doesn't seem to have any more power in balanced mode than my old Pioneer XDP-30R at a tenth of the price, which is truly ridiculous.

yes,even sony japan a1m2 has 250mw output, and my shanling m7 has 900mW. with M7 at max volume i dont hear any hiss or distortion,clean sound. where on my sp3000m distortion and hiss stasrts from 100 out of max 150 volume... i think need sent back sp3000m to amazon i have 14days return, its downgrade to my shanling m7. do you know upgrade to my M7?

 

[Joe Smith]

I'm so tired reading this thread, I think I have to go back to bed...

 

[Roland68]

yes,even sony japan a1m2 has 250mw output, and my shanling m7 has 900mW. with M7 at max volume i dont hear any hiss or distortion,clean sound. where on my sp3000m distortion and hiss stasrts from 100 out of max 150 volume... i think need sent back sp3000m to amazon i have 14days return, its downgrade to my shanling m7. do you know upgrade to my M7?

What or why do you want to upgrade?
A&K are known for their well-integrated DACs, but the output stages, well, so-so.
Shanling makes quite good overall packages, and the M7 should also be above the threshold of audibility.

As I've mentioned before, I've listened to and compared many DAPs over the past few years, certainly over 30, all ranging from around €300 to over €6000. The sonic differences were minimal, and I can count on one hand the devices that sounded marginally better than my XDP-30R. And I'm talking nuances. A&K has always disappointed me the most.

In terms of sound, you shouldn't expect an upgrade from the M7.
If you really want something new, I would look for a reliable and powerful device and, above all, pay attention to functionality. In terms of sound, you've probably reached the end of the range at €200-500, and in terms of performance, at around €1000. After that, you're paying for prestige and haptics, and maybe even bling-bling components that don't make a difference.

I just see that the M7 is the equivalent of my Fiio M15, the newer M15s, etc. I'm afraid that's at most a sidegrade and not an upgrade. The M23 might also be interesting in that case.
The DAP companies that interest me are Fiio, HIDIZS, Shanling, XDuoo, Questyle, iBasso, etc.

Just to put the price into perspective, the best I've heard so far, even with sensitive IEMs, was a combination of the xDuoo X10T II Transport (no DAC included, only digital outputs) and the Topping G5. Measured power: 153mW/300 ohms and 1.02 watts/32 ohms, with extremely low noise levels, even beating many desktop devices and combos.
RRP for both devices combined is under €550.
In my opinion, no other DAP on the market can compete, both in terms of sound and measured values.

 

[leonasj500]

What or why do you want to upgrade?
A&K are known for their well-integrated DACs, but the output stages, well, so-so.
Shanling makes quite good overall packages, and the M7 should also be above the threshold of audibility.

As I've mentioned before, I've listened to and compared many DAPs over the past few years, certainly over 30, all ranging from around €300 to over €6000. The sonic differences were minimal, and I can count on one hand the devices that sounded marginally better than my XDP-30R. And I'm talking nuances. A&K has always disappointed me the most.

In terms of sound, you shouldn't expect an upgrade from the M7.
If you really want something new, I would look for a reliable and powerful device and, above all, pay attention to functionality. In terms of sound, you've probably reached the end of the range at €200-500, and in terms of performance, at around €1000. After that, you're paying for prestige and haptics, and maybe even bling-bling components that don't make a difference.

I just see that the M7 is the equivalent of my Fiio M15, the newer M15s, etc. I'm afraid that's at most a sidegrade and not an upgrade. The M23 might also be interesting in that case.
The DAP companies that interest me are Fiio, HIDIZS, Shanling, XDuoo, Questyle, iBasso, etc.

Just to put the price into perspective, the best I've heard so far, even with sensitive IEMs, was a combination of the xDuoo X10T II Transport (no DAC included, only digital outputs) and the Topping G5. Measured power: 153mW/300 ohms and 1.02 watts/32 ohms, with extremely low noise levels, even beating many desktop devices and combos.
RRP for both devices combined is under €550.
In my opinion, no other DAP on the market can compete, both in terms of sound and measured values.

nice,thanks for help. im just like size of sp3000m. blazing fast ui,very good touch screen. a bit fast performing than my m7. im just think sp3000m trade for ibasso dx260mkii? but it a bit bigger,same light. dx260mkii shows 1015mW output vs M7 -900mW. Also android 13, SNR133dB vs 128dB on M7. Good upgrade?so,maybe a brighter sound a bit.i like more sparkle get. but as you told minimal audible difference.. M15 has 2x ak4499eq and 15S has es9038pro/so both different sounds and performs power? also want ask your pioneer has real potenciometer volume or digital?