dap with top resolution and well extended treble,not bassy

[leonasj500]

hello,some telling all daps sound same,but many talks they different in tone,some warm,some neutral or analytical. im looking bright sounding dap,well extended treble,top imaging and resolution , holographic sound,big soundstage. im prefer ess sabre dac powered,as read akm sounds velvet what im not looking for. price 1-2K eur. does shanling M9 good idea? or shanling sound warm lush?

 

[sergeauckland]

hello,some telling all daps sound same,but many talks they different in tone,some warm,some neutral or analytical. im looking bright sounding dap,well extended treble,top imaging and resolution , holographic sound,big soundstage. im prefer ess sabre dac powered,as read akm sounds velvet what im not looking for. price 1-2K eur. does shanling M9 good idea? or shanling sound warm lush?

Many talk about all sorts of things that aren't true! Just look at the measurements. I don't know of any DAP that doesn't have a flat frequency response and low noise and distortion. Certainly all well below human hearing thresholds.

Just buy one that has the facilities you need, as they'll all sound the same. Any difference is in the headphones, their impedance variation and the DAP's output impedance.

 

[leonasj500]

Many talk about all sorts of things that aren't true! Just look at the measurements. I don't know of any DAP that doesn't have a flat frequency response and low noise and distortion. Certainly all well below human hearing thresholds.

Just buy one that has the facilities you need, as they'll all sound the same. Any difference is in the headphones, their impedance variation and the DAP's output impedance.

so,astell kern sr25 ii vs astell kern sp3000 sounds same? but shows price 3x different. also ibasso dx260 mk2 snr 134dB ,were sp3000 only snr 130dB. how can sound same if different output characteristics? soundstage,resolution,details,imaging,clarity? all same?

 

[solderdude]

Test 2 of these players at the same time with the exact same music.

Invite someone to help you. That person needs to have a measurement device that lets you set the volume exactly the same within 1% (at a few hundred Hz) when loaded with the used headphone. Ensure both players do not reach any limits. Don't use headphones with some extremely low or high impedance or sensitivity.
Then start both players at the same time.
Cover your eyes.
Let someone plug in to player A.
Listen and ask them to plug into B.
Listen for a while.

On your request let them plug out and then (randomly) plug into A or B and they write down what they plugged into (A or B).
Guess if it is A or B. The helper writes down your choice.
Then repeat ... 20 times or so.
Compare the results.

As long as no 'special features' are engaged and you don't know what is playing you'll be guessing.
No one ever tests this way but if you really want to know they should.
(Potential) owners also should test a DAP with their own music and headphone at all kinds of levels they plan to use it with.
player A may well cut the mustard in some cases where B or C won't/can't.

When you do this sighted and operate the players yourself you will find there is a clear preference for one player.
That can be for many reasons, usually operation, weight, price, how loud they can play without reaching distortion or any of their limits, or some 'X-bass' or other effect or some incorrect 'filter' that has a roll-off in the upper treble (for young people) or the one that has 'the best specs' or is reviewed 'better'.

 

[leonasj500]

Test 2 of these players at the same time with the exact same music.

Invite someone to help you. That person needs to have a measurement device that lets you set the volume exactly the same within 1% (at a few hundred Hz) when loaded with the used headphone. Ensure both players do not reach any limits. Don't use headphones with some extremely low or high impedance or sensitivity.
Then start both players at the same time.
Cover your eyes.
Let someone plug in to player A.
Listen and ask them to plug into B.
Listen for a while.

On your request let them plug out and then (randomly) plug into A or B and they write down what they plugged into (A or B).
Guess if it is A or B. The helper writes down your choice.
Then repeat ... 20 times or so.
Compare the results.

As long as no 'special features' are engaged and you don't know what is playing you'll be guessing.

When you do this sighted and operate the players yourself you will find there is a clear preference for one player.
That can be for many reasons, usually operation, weight, price, how loud they can play without reaching distortion or any of their limits, or some 'X-bass' or other effect or some incorrect 'filter' that has a roll-off in the upper treble (for young people) or the one that has 'the best specs' or is reviewed 'better'.

last week i had in hands my current for 2years beloved shanling M7 dap, also got to tried sony nw-wma1m2 and have for sale ak sr25 ii ,as got bigger screen shanling m7 for my not good eyes. so,im tried as you told -same song,same volume made in all 3 daps and as many time teted AB all 3 daps. and so-no any sound difference. but maybe they all same priced for same sound. maybe astell kern SP3000 for 3200eur souds more better? sony im sent back to amazon as not comfortable volume +-buttons vs rotable knob. maybe worth to look at shanling M9+ or M9 just upgrade my M7?

 

[solderdude]

Impossible to recommend anything... as you found out... it is personal and even headphone dependent.
When they are all set 'flat' tonally and playing (about) equally loud they all will perform the same.
Differences can occur with different loads (headphones) at different levels (one can play louder than the other) or some functions or 'tone settings' may well pan out 'better' for an owner. Display, operation, size, ergonomics, battery life etc...

 

[DVDdoug]

but shows price 3x different.

Most of the cost is in the memory, display, etc., that doesn't affect the "sound". With modern electronics, good sound is cheap & easy. The $10 Apple Dongle got an excellent review. There are DAPs & headphone amplifiers with more power (louder). But more power for a headphone amp doesn't cost the manufacturer much either* We are usually talking about less than 1 Watt... With power amplifiers (for speakers) you can get 1 Watt or more per-dollar.

There are overhead costs that tend to make DAPs more expensive than more mass-produced products.

My marketing professor used to say, "When in doubt, raise the price". Consumers tend to associate higher price with higher quality and of course it boosts the profit margin. And, especially in the "audiophile community", a higher price tends to increase demand (or "desire").

hello,some telling all daps sound same,but many talks they different in tone,some warm,some neutral or analytical. im looking bright sounding dap,well extended treble,top imaging and resolution , holographic sound,big soundstage. im prefer ess sabre dac powered,as read akm sounds velvet

All of those words are typical-meaningless "audiophile nonsense". They can mean almost anything and the reviewers that use this kind or terminology almost never do blind listening tests or back-up what they think they are hearing with measurements. With electronics there are ONLY 3 characteristics of "sound quality" - Frequency response, noise, and distortion. With a DAP or DAC, they are all usually better than human hearing. With speakers, headphones, or in-ears, there are frequency response variations, and when you add room acoustics it gets more complicated. See Audiophoolery for the REAL characteristics of sound quality.



* With a USB powered device, the 5V power supply limits how much power you can get out of it.

 

[leonasj500]

Most of the cost is in the memory, display, etc., that doesn't affect the "sound". With modern electronics, good sound is cheap & easy. The $10 Apple Dongle got an excellent review. There are DAPs & headphone amplifiers with more power (louder). But more power for a headphone amp doesn't cost the manufacturer much either* We are usually talking about less than 1 Watt... With power amplifiers (for speakers) you can get 1 Watt or more per-dollar.

There are overhead costs that tend to make DAPs more expensive than more mass-produced products.

My marketing professor used to say, "When in doubt, raise the price". Consumers tend to associate higher price with higher quality and of course it boosts the profit margin. And, especially in the "audiophile community", a higher price tends to increase demand (or "desire").


All of those words are typical-meaningless "audiophile nonsense". They can mean almost anything and the reviewers that use this kind or terminology almost never do blind listening tests or back-up what they think they are hearing with measurements. With electronics there are ONLY 3 characteristics of "sound quality" - Frequency response, noise, and distortion. With a DAP or DAC, they are all usually better than human hearing. With speakers, headphones, or in-ears, there are frequency response variations, and when you add room acoustics it gets more complicated. See Audiophoolery for the REAL characteristics of sound quality.



* With a USB powered device, the 5V power supply limits how much power you can get out of it.

so,all daps is linear sounding,no warmer or brighter if use same blind test with same volume and same song? but resolution,details micro or macrodetails same too?

 

[sergeauckland]

so,all daps is linear sounding,no warmer or brighter if use same blind test with same volume and same song? but resolution,details micro or macrodetails same too?

Yes, because those things are in your imagination. They're not real.

There are only three things that are real:- Distortion, frequency response and noise. Everything else is in your head.

S.

 

[leonasj500]

Yes, because those things are in your imagination. They're not real.

There are only three things that are real:- Distortion, frequency response and noise. Everything else is in your head.

S.

so,all daps has different noise,different distortion (SNR,DR) and for that sounds different? below SNR 120dB human not hearing. so,if two daps has snr 120 and other 128,so both sounds same if has same distortion? or at very high volume sound start distort and hear difference then. but at normal listing no different/?

 

[leonasj500]

Yes, because those things are in your imagination. They're not real.

There are only three things that are real:- Distortion, frequency response and noise. Everything else is in your head.

S.

also different frequency responce and daps sound different?

 

[sergeauckland]

so,all daps has different noise,different distortion (SNR,DR) and for that sounds different? below SNR 120dB human not hearing. so,if two daps has snr 120 and other 128,so both sounds same if has same distortion? or at very high volume sound start distort and hear difference then. but at normal listing no different/?

also different frequency responce and daps sound different?

Yes, they would. However there's NO DAP that has audible distortion. There's NO DAP that has a frequency response that varies enough to be audible. There's NO DAP that has audible noise. That's why they all sound the same.

S.

 

[leonasj500]

Yes, they would. However there's NO DAP that has audible distortion. There's NO DAP that has a frequency response that varies enough to be audible. There's NO DAP that has audible noise. That's why they all sound the same.

S.

audible distortion has tubes and human hearing warm sound.where transisitor amp is neutral sound.correct?

 

[leonasj500]

audible distortion has tubes and human hearing warm sound.where transistor amp is neutral sound.correct?

 

[JeremyFife]

so,astell kern sr25 ii vs astell kern sp3000 sounds same? but shows price 3x different. also ibasso dx260 mk2 snr 134dB ,were sp3000 only snr 130dB. how can sound same if different output characteristics? soundstage,resolution,details,imaging,clarity? all same?

With the same song, same headphones and same volume (that's critical) ... yes, all the same

Difficult to believe at first. @solderdude explains how you can do a fairly simple test to check for yourself.

Buy for the features you want, and looks that you like. Never spend more than your budget, aim to spend a lot less.

Welcome to ASR

 

[leonasj500]

With the same song, same headphones and same volume (that's critical) ... yes, all the same

Difficult to believe at first. @solderdude explains how you can do a fairly simple test to check for yourself.

Buy for the features you want, and looks that you like. Never spend more than your budget, aim to spend a lot less.

Welcome to ASR

thanks,i use and love my shanling M7 for 2years for small size,not heavy 310gr ,powerfull 900mw at 4.4, and lush sound. but want just upgrade for dap with stable LDAC codec at 990bt. read ibasso dx340 has superior stable LDAC at 990,where my shanling not sound good ldac at 990,im use only 660 ,as at 990 its simply stopping paused plays sometimes. i m tested my sr 25ii,m7 and sony a1m2 at same audible volume,same song,same headphones blind test. yes,all 3 sounds equally same. where forums shows ,sony has warm detailed sound,shanling has warm neutral and ak sr25ii simply linear neutral sound. yes,at high volumes they sounds different as starts distortion or different power output. sr25ii start hissy at high volume,where shanling at max sound volume not changes sound. Even tried rme adi-2 fs vs shanling m7 dap and both sounds same. same song,same volume. correct?

 

[sergeauckland]

audible distortion has tubes and human hearing warm sound.where transisitor amp is neutral sound.correct?

No, not necessarily. Whilst a tube amplifier will almost certainly have higher distortion than a transistor amplifier, a well designed tube amp will be still be transparent, and therefore will sound the same.

However, as tube amplifiers are a lot more expensive to build than transistor amplifiers, there's no point in a transparent tube amplifier, so manufacturers of tube amplifiers often design them to sound different. They will have much higher distortion, high enough to be audible, and may also have a much higher output impedance which interacts with the loudspeakers' varying impedance to change the sound. The easiest way of doing this is to have low or no feedback, and some tube enthusiasts go on about feedback being bad, but all feedback does is to reduce distortion and output impedance.

As to tubes sounding warm, that's just rubbish, probably based on tubes being hot, so the sound is warm...

S.

 

[leonasj500]

No, not necessarily. Whilst a tube amplifier will almost certainly have higher distortion than a transistor amplifier, a well designed tube amp will be still be transparent, and therefore will sound the same.

However, as tube amplifiers are a lot more expensive to build than transistor amplifiers, there's no point in a transparent tube amplifier, so manufacturers of tube amplifiers often design them to sound different. They will have much higher distortion, high enough to be audible, and may also have a much higher output impedance which interacts with the loudspeakers' varying impedance to change the sound. The easiest way of doing this is to have low or no feedback, and some tube enthusiasts go on about feedback being bad, but all feedback does is to reduce distortion and output impedance.

As to tubes sounding warm, that's just rubbish, probably based on tubes being hot, so the sound is warm...

S.

understand now,. i had in past xduoo TA-22 tube dac/amp and it sounds like transistor ones.no warm. simply sold it and got rme adi-2 fs dac as like EQ screen and can eq music without any app in pc.

 

[leonasj500]

Yes, they would. However there's NO DAP that has audible distortion. There's NO DAP that has a frequency response that varies enough to be audible. There's NO DAP that has audible noise. That's why they all sound the same.

S.

look,but im clearly feel very bad sound if listen tidal via my desktop output and via RME adi-2 fs dac connected. from laptop dac simply junk sound,and rme shines as should be. so,not all dac dap amp are transparent and sounds same...?

 

[Joe Smith]

It feels like you are making this a bit too hard for yourself...or that your perceptions are so fine tuned that no one can help you make the decision that is right for you. I think the general advice here is to listen to the player before purchasing if possible, buy to your budget and for the feature set you want. There's no likely audible difference for most folks' hearing (because only very small differences in measurements) between a $300 dap and a $3000 dap.