• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

If you could do it all over again...

feynman

Member
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
76
Likes
154
Location
Arizona
This is partially a selfish post for me, but one that does make me curious. I'm currently in a blank sheet sort of phase in trying to put together a modest yet excellent listening experience...

I appreciate all of the input I received on my room/system thread, and I have been voraciously consuming all of the other threads on the forum as well. I'm sure I've covered a year's worth of material so far.

My own thread seemed split between recommendations for amplification+Revelesque passives and an active monitor path. In this and other threads I have often noticed posters making comments along the line of "if I was to start again today, I'd get an x and a y and call it a day..."

So, if you don't mind indulging a somewhat pointless question, I am wondering how you might complete that sentence yourself.

Since I am hoping to build a good minimalist digital stereo system for music, I think it might prove helpful to me to hear your thoughts (so there's some commendable benevolence in your reply).

Thanks, again.

-mitch
 

badboygolf16v

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 24, 2018
Messages
285
Likes
356
Well, Kii (I've heard) or Dutch & Dutch (not heard) would be nice, but out of my price range. Instead I "settled" for Neumann KH80/KH805.

I only have a small listening room and have close neighbours so limited SPL is not an issue for me. It may be for you. I will replace the KH805 with a KH750 as space is at a premium.

So I've reached my "call it a day" based on my budget!
 

svart-hvitt

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 31, 2017
Messages
2,375
Likes
1,253
This is partially a selfish post for me, but one that does make me curious. I'm currently in a blank sheet sort of phase in trying to put together a modest yet excellent listening experience...

I appreciate all of the input I received on my room/system thread, and I have been voraciously consuming all of the other threads on the forum as well. I'm sure I've covered a years' worth of material so far.

My own thread seemed split between recommendations for amplification+Revelesque passives and an active monitor path. In this and other threads I have often noticed posters making comments along the line of "if I was to start again today, I'd get an x and a y and call it a day..."

So, if you don't mind indulging a somewhat pointless question, I am wondering how you might complete that sentence yourself.

Since I am hoping to build a good minimalist digital stereo system for music, I think it might prove helpful to me to hear your thoughts (so there's some commendable benevolence in your reply).

Thanks, again.

-mitch

You need to define your needs and preferences.

You wrote «minimalist». Do you want a «minimalist» sound too? Or do you want power, pressure, «snappiness», full range down to 15 Hz etc.?
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,183
Likes
12,466
Location
London
Laptop, dac/ playback software with EQ active speakers to your taste/budget.
Keith
 

invaderzim

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Messages
320
Likes
563
Location
NorCal
"if I was to start again today, I'd ."

Avoid forums, youtube videos and reviews and never know there was anything better than whatever I had.

But in all seriousness I kept my first receiver and speakers I purchased 30 years ago and recently recapped them. I was listening to them last night and thought "If I'd just done this back when I started spending all this money on equipment I could have been plenty happy and way ahead financially"
 
Last edited:
OP
feynman

feynman

Member
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
76
Likes
154
Location
Arizona
You need to define your needs and preferences.

Sorry, I shouldn't have even mentioned myself - I am just curious about others' personal reflections. If they happen to help me, great, but it's really about you. :)

Avoid forums, youtube videos and reviews...

I completely relate to this, yet here I am. I shed myself of every other forum a few years ago, for my own mental health and retained faith in humanity...I made an exception for you fine folks.

I admit again that this is a bit of a pointless thread, but I like hearing such things if you will indulge me.
 

invaderzim

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Messages
320
Likes
563
Location
NorCal
I admit again that this is a bit of a pointless thread, but I like hearing such things if you will indulge me.

I think the 20/20 of hindsight from those that have been through the buying can be greatly helpful to those starting out.

If my audio equipment were to disappear today I'd probably think seriously about something like a Yamaha R-N803 and then drive myself crazy comparing speakers in the $1200 or less range (maybe go a it higher and get some S400s). I still like the squeezebox touch so I'd probably get one of those used. Around $2,200 call it good and someday in the future the setup would pop up on an estate sale ad.
 
Last edited:

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,303
Likes
9,867
Location
NYC
My own thread seemed split between recommendations for amplification+Revelesque passives and an active monitor path. In this and other threads I have often noticed posters making comments along the line of "if I was to start again today, I'd get an x and a y and call it a day..."
I have been wrestling with that issue for months.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,667
Likes
241,022
Location
Seattle Area
My system is better than I deserve. :) I have no wishes for changes or doing over. Its fidelity far exceeds much of the content I play. So I really can't contribute anything here other than the old saying, "buy the best and you won't buy again." :)

The two most important things are getting a speaker that has been verified through controlled testing/objective means to garner preference and use room EQ to deal with the effect of the room on low frequencies. Forget about everything else until you have accomplished these two things.
 

MRC01

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,485
Likes
4,111
Location
Pacific Northwest
Like Amir, my systems are better than I deserve, though I spent too much time and money over the years getting it all sorted just the way I like.

If I were building an entry-level system now, clean-slate, for limited budget (say, advice for a college student) I would get Massdrop HD58x headphones, a JDS Atom amp, a good sound card (like an Asus Xonar DX), and use a desktop PC as the source device. If the PC were a laptop then I would pick up a Topping DX3 Pro instead of the sound card & JDS Atom. Either way, total cost about $350 for everything, with excellent sound quality.
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,767
Likes
37,628
Okay, I've thought of this before as in, if a burglar stole everything and I had to start over what would I do. I'd do one of the two things you mention above. A good basic Revel-esque system sized for the room or go the active route. Going active for residential audio you have few choices, but that is getting better. I'd think digital crossovers and room DSP are good. So if not a Revel passive, maybe Kii or Dutch&Dutch if that fit the budget. I always tell people to start with speakers and work around those once you've made a choice.

So lets say we stick with passive speakers, but good ones. I'd go with some nice Hypex based amps. Get a good DAC, or streamer, possibly an RME. Feed it over a small computer or direct off wifi if a streamer and be done with it.

Now is that good advice? I'm sure I'd be plenty happy and satisfied with that approach..............now. If I were someone just starting out, I don't know if that is good advice or not. I've seen people who bought well, bought once and lived very happily with their gear for 20 or 30 years. The other approach, the one I've lived is that you don't know what you want at first. Even if I ended up with exactly what someone with knowledge suggested to me I don't know if I'd have the confidence to be satisfied with it as much.

What I did was get something better than average. Learned what was important to me and what isn't. Moved onto to better gear a few times. Refined what I was looking for moving onto to even better gear. Made some foolish choices and learned. Made some good ones by accident and learned. Had to adapt as we went from LP and tape to CD to just digital files. All of it was interesting and fun. I know what I do and don't like about a system, and with new tech and real improvements even that has evolved a bit. So yes now if starting over that advice I'd give is really what I'd do and be fine with it. But if I'm telling someone else, without having lived it out, they'd have a good system for music, but would they miss out on the fun and experience of getting there. If I climb a mountain and take in the vista below, is it the same experience as if you get dropped off on the summit by a helicopter and take in the same vista?

Leaning back the other way just a bit, One difference between the time I lived and now, in the early days, all parts of the chain had real genuine performance differences that mattered. Now speakers may be the only part that still matters in terms of real audible performance. That means if you do much more than get good advice and choose according to it, there is little to gain other than a fantasy and wasted effort. So the experience I lived is not actually available anymore. Perhaps why better quality audio has become more niche and expensive along with all the usual reasons.

So my advice that is useful ends up being, get whatever features and UI you prefer and buy good speakers.

Now beyond that if someone is smitten by the music/audiophile bug, I'd suggest go ahead and make the change to multi-channel. Don't go very far in gilding the stereo lily so much. It is mostly a waste of resources or if not a waste small returns. Stereo is just a different experience than mono, and much more like live even with all of its deficiencies. In one way MCH is not all that good for the improvement. I'd say if done well maybe 30% subjectively better than good stereo. Yet you need 2.5 or 3 times the gear. But this is a time when everything else is so good in basic performance you'll really struggle to get 30% better with stereo. Actually you'll only do it if your speakers aren't too hot. So if you want to really get the best MCH isn't a bad way to improve.

* OTOH, the pitiful performance of AVR amps and other cheap amps means you still have to put a little more into amps to get good performance. It really need not be that way, but it is seeing Amir's test results.
 

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,303
Likes
9,867
Location
NYC
Now beyond that if someone is smitten by the music/audiophile bug, I'd suggest go ahead and make the change to multi-channel. Don't go very far in gilding the stereo lily so much. It is mostly a waste of resources or if not a waste small returns. Stereo is just a different experience than mono, and much more like live even with all of its deficiencies. In one way MCH is not all that good for the improvement. I'd say if done well maybe 30% subjectively better than good stereo. Yet you need 2.5 or 3 times the gear. But this is a time when everything else is so good in basic performance you'll really struggle to get 30% better with stereo. Actually you'll only do it if your speakers aren't too hot. So if you want to really get the best MCH isn't a bad way to improve.
I agree but with much more enthusiasm.

I am in the throes of system upheaval but MCH is presumed.
 

GrimSurfer

Major Contributor
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
1,238
Likes
1,484
IMG_1562.JPG


Posted to elicit a laugh. Funny image.

Anyone who thinks they will get a rocker to admit any regrets has got a long wait!
 
OP
feynman

feynman

Member
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
76
Likes
154
Location
Arizona
Okay, I've thought of this before...

I appreciate this powerful narrative and completely agree - we may even be in similar boats. I seem to be getting older by the year, but my addiction began in the 70s when I claimed my Dad's old Phase Linear 400, Dynaco PAT5, Dual turntable and weird Bertagni d120 'geostats.' It's been a long and crazy road since then but I am feeling the urge to simplify, spend smarter, get off the train, etc. At times I wonder if I might actually like the gear side of this journey a bit too much, but I've learned to live with that. Now that there are wives/children/dogs/cats/sleep competing for my time and money, I am trying to be a bit sensible for once. I believe I can do it (I can, right?). I am trying most to curb my tendency to obsess and overanalyze every particle of this decision.

At this point I have my new imperfect little corner in which to place a small system, for the limited time windows I will have to listen to it, but I'm as excited as ever. I just don't want to reinvent the long road for this goal, so I'm hoping to learn from your reasoned experiences where I can.

I love this stuff a bit more than might be sane, but I see I'm in good company.
 
Last edited:

pozz

Слава Україні
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
4,036
Likes
6,827
I have a spreadsheet named "audio dreams" I keep on my desktop. My desires are prosaic. Mostly they start with having a room large enough to be worth demolishing and building a mastering studio.

Then I have a section for home listening with speakers that I'd like to hear one day in my living room: Harbeth 40.2, Revel Salon2, JBL M2, Klipschorns. I had Magnepans on there before, but once I heard those and Martin Logans I took them off. Really not my kind of sound.

So I mean that I'm ok with how I've done it—there's just so much more I want to do.
 

FrantzM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
4,377
Likes
7,878
I have a spreadsheet named "audio dreams" I keep on my desktop. My desires are prosaic. Mostly they start with having a room large enough to be worth demolishing and building a mastering studio.

Then I have a section for home listening with speakers that I'd like to hear one day in my living room: Harbeth 40.2, Revel Salon2, JBL M2, Klipschorns. I had Magnepans on there before, but once I heard those and Martin Logans I took them off. Really not my kind of sound.

So I mean that I'm ok with how I've done it—there's just so much more I want to do.
Hi

I have a spreadsheet too ..
I have been oscillating between Horn and Dynamic speakers ..
At this point in time , I would likely go toward a system with something like this:

OktoResearch 8 DAc ( the one with 8 outputs)
Hypex NXC400 Amplifier or perhaps something a bit more powerful.. Hypex-based .. NC1200 on each side ...
Revel Ultima 2 (The current Revel TOL but second hand of course)
A quatuor of Ryhtmik, SVS or other subs
A software DRC such as Acourate or Audiolense or ...

Nordost Odin Cables all around ... NOT!! :D
 

Crane

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
145
Likes
163
While a little new to the game, if I had to do it again I'd probably just kill my friend who got me into it :D. Probably the only real regret I have is due to the limitation of audio place/shop where I'm living is basing purchases of subjective reviews (Schiit :rolleyes:).

i'm currently running a pair of Adam A5X looped through the khadas/JDS atoms and those speaker still wow me for their capabilities. In the next few months I'll be moving and changing this setup. I'll be going for Buchardt S400/Hypex Amp (unless their active line is available) for a desktop setting and attempt to find a used revel salon2 + benchmark amp to be part of my HT setup.

I'll let you know if I regret anything then o_O
 

Old Listener

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2016
Messages
499
Likes
556
Location
SF Bay Area, California
Okay, I've thought of this before as in, if a burglar stole everything and I had to start over what would I do. I'd do one of the two things you mention above. A good basic Revel-esque system sized for the room or go the active route. Going active for residential audio you have few choices, but that is getting better. I'd think digital crossovers and room DSP are good. So if not a Revel passive, maybe Kii or Dutch&Dutch if that fit the budget. I always tell people to start with speakers and work around those once you've made a choice.

So lets say we stick with passive speakers, but good ones. I'd go with some nice Hypex based amps. Get a good DAC, or streamer, possibly an RME. Feed it over a small computer or direct off wifi if a streamer and be done with it.

Now is that good advice? I'm sure I'd be plenty happy and satisfied with that approach..............now. If I were someone just starting out, I don't know if that is good advice or not. I've seen people who bought well, bought once and lived very happily with their gear for 20 or 30 years. The other approach, the one I've lived is that you don't know what you want at first. Even if I ended up with exactly what someone with knowledge suggested to me I don't know if I'd have the confidence to be satisfied with it as much.

What I did was get something better than average. Learned what was important to me and what isn't. Moved onto to better gear a few times. Refined what I was looking for moving onto to even better gear. Made some foolish choices and learned. Made some good ones by accident and learned. Had to adapt as we went from LP and tape to CD to just digital files. All of it was interesting and fun. I know what I do and don't like about a system, and with new tech and real improvements even that has evolved a bit. So yes now if starting over that advice I'd give is really what I'd do and be fine with it. But if I'm telling someone else, without having lived it out, they'd have a good system for music, but would they miss out on the fun and experience of getting there. If I climb a mountain and take in the vista below, is it the same experience as if you get dropped off on the summit by a helicopter and take in the same vista?

Leaning back the other way just a bit, One difference between the time I lived and now, in the early days, all parts of the chain had real genuine performance differences that mattered. Now speakers may be the only part that still matters in terms of real audible performance. That means if you do much more than get good advice and choose according to it, there is little to gain other than a fantasy and wasted effort. So the experience I lived is not actually available anymore. Perhaps why better quality audio has become more niche and expensive along with all the usual reasons.

So my advice that is useful ends up being, get whatever features and UI you prefer and buy good speakers.

Now beyond that if someone is smitten by the music/audiophile bug, I'd suggest go ahead and make the change to multi-channel. Don't go very far in gilding the stereo lily so much. It is mostly a waste of resources or if not a waste small returns. Stereo is just a different experience than mono, and much more like live even with all of its deficiencies. In one way MCH is not all that good for the improvement. I'd say if done well maybe 30% subjectively better than good stereo. Yet you need 2.5 or 3 times the gear. But this is a time when everything else is so good in basic performance you'll really struggle to get 30% better with stereo. Actually you'll only do it if your speakers aren't too hot. So if you want to really get the best MCH isn't a bad way to improve.

* OTOH, the pitiful performance of AVR amps and other cheap amps means you still have to put a little more into amps to get good performance. It really need not be that way, but it is seeing Amir's test results.

A burglar did steal main system and home office speakers from our home in 1998. I replaced the main system speakers with 3-way active speakers with external amplification and I went with powered speakers for the home ofice system.

None of the audio gear I use now is more than 3 years old. I would not change anything if I started over tomorrow.

Main system: Intel i5 NUC as the only source, Audioengine D3 USB powered DAC and Dynaudio LYD48 3-way active speakers. JRiver software provides DSP facilities as well as the right UI for browsing and playing music. The DAC cost about $ 70 and the speakers cost $ 2300 for the pair.

Home office system: Intel i5 NUC running JRiver s/w, Audioquest Dragonfly Red USB powered DAC, Audioengine HD6 powered speakers. $ 200 for the DAC and $ 600 for the speakers on sale. The JRiver s/w provides DSP facilities in this system too.

TV system: 43" TCL 4K Roku TV feading Audioengine HD6 powered speakers via Toslink cable. The DAC function is in the speakers. $ 400 for the TV and $ 580 for the speakers on sale. No DSP in this system.

I use REW s/w and a calibrated USB mic to measure low frequency performance and apply corrections in the JRiver s/w.

None of the gear that I use was available in the late 60s when I started buying audio gear.
 
Top Bottom