If tubes amplifiers measure poorly, why are they perceived as sounding better?

[Blumlein 88]

someone somewhere will piss on my toes for saying this.

out of all the solid state amps ive heard, one of the outstanding ones was MSB, for some reason it was great, and it was on a s5 speaker. in the last nine of so months the mcintosh's ive heard were okay-okay. but here the thing, most amps in the solid state range to me sound generally neutered, missing boom, and sorta flat sounding. some people say, "you need to eq" but im its still as a standard in reference setup just flat and ball less. the msb, and like one other amp impressed me but they were really expensive.

now ive learned that when listening to most tube amps at low to low-mild volumes you'll never hear any of the tube amp "distortion" complaint solid state guys tout, but when you drive a tube amp it will have that tube shimmer/distortion but that's supper distinctive and different in every amp. then there are some high end amps with tubes, and you can turn those things up to 100-110 db and there zero distortion, you get that tube BOOM, and there's a sound stage. some amps dont really break up, but you pay for that loudness volume quality. im sure there are affordable great sounding tube amps too.

the guys who talk about tube distortion its true, but can we hear it? maybe in bad tube amp circuits, or noisier circuits when turned up with unstable transformers. there are some phenomenal mono block setups out there that are just like full on turbo charged amps. and the tubes serve near zero drawback. the solid state guys may be technically right but they are bias. some tube amps right out of the box dont need any real eq except for room correction. they have a concerto boom and snare snappiness similar to a high speed paper snapping. its just insane how some of these amps work. i like tube amps. and when i finds a solid state that i feel sounds as good or better i can afford, i will deff let people know i got it.

tube amps can be crappy and they can be brilliant. when i got my first hifi tube amp i thought it was great till i learned about loud music.

You could buy a low powered tube amp you like. Load it with a model of your speakers impedance (power resistors, caps and coils), reduce voltage for unity or low gain, use it between source and SS power amp. You'll get all the sound you love with whatever power you need. You'll get all the sound of the tubes. Because there sound is a coloration and one any good SS amp can correctly reproduce. This is not conjecture either it is something I have done a few times.

 

[Magz]

Isn't Class A2 basically Class B, but with more bias towards Class A?

In A2 the same single-ended output tube is conducting through the entire cycle. It is never cut off. There is no phase splitter. There is no hand-off to another output element. I suppose that could be considered as having "more bias toward class A" if it is always in class A...

 

[Schollaudio]

Isn't Class A2 basically Class B, but with more bias towards Class A?

In some A2 designs the tubes are biased at 0 volts on the grid so yes they look like class B but the signal drives them both positive and negative to the 0 volts. In class B the grid is only driven negative.

 

[SIY]

In class B the grid is only driven negative.

Often true. But you can run Class B with zero bias triodes where the drive is positive. Likewise, screen drive push pull amps are often run at near Class B, with a tiny trickle of idle current and the screen driven positive for the actual signal.

 

[genesisaudiorack]

You could buy a low powered tube amp you like. Load it with a model of your speakers impedance (power resistors, caps and coils), reduce voltage for unity or low gain, use it between source and SS power amp. You'll get all the sound you love with whatever power you need. You'll get all the sound of the tubes. Because there sound is a coloration and one any good SS amp can correctly reproduce. This is not conjecture either it is something I have done a few times.

sure maybe, but overall most of the solid state amps i hear are very dull and neutered.

 

[Snarfie]

From a casual observation tube equipment measures poorly compared to solid state. However, many people say tubes sound better. How is this possible? From personal experience, I have noticed some poorly measuring tube amps will raise the hairs on the back of my neck while listening to Sade. It is as if she were breathing on my neck and ears. However, I have also noticed I do not get this same physical reaction with some very well-measuring solid-state amplifiers. The scientific part of me says this is bullshit but my physical response is undeniable. How can I get these two sides of my brain to agree? I want to believe if it can't be measured it does not exist yet the goosebumps on my neck do not lie. Has anyone else had this experience?

Yes but than with solid state amp's.

 

[LTig]

sure maybe, but overall most of the solid state amps i hear are very dull and neutered.

That's just because you prefer a little loudness. Nothing wrong with this! a

Now you know several ways how to achieve this with a solid state amp. Just try it!

 

[MaxBuck]

sure maybe, but overall most of the solid state amps i hear are very dull and neutered.

What do you mean by "dull" and "neutered?"

Just a note: I'm unaware of amplifiers that have the ability to procreate. Can anyone supply an example?

 

[Blumlein 88]

sure maybe, but overall most of the solid state amps i hear are very dull and neutered.

It is a sound accurate to the input signal. Change the input and the output will change.

 

[Magz]

Just a note: I'm unaware of amplifiers that have the ability to procreate. Can anyone supply an example?

Tiny Class D amps. Those buzzy little buggers are seemingly popping up everywhere and in everything...there must be a hive nearby.

 

[Magz]

Tiny Class D amps. Those buzzy little buggers are seemingly popping up everywhere and in everything...there must be a hive nearby.

PS: no offense to ClassD. I've owned Icepower (Gilmore Raven and Raptor monos) and Flying Mole monos (proprietary class D circuit) in the past.
They were good, but just didn't do it for me like a good SET did.
The problem was that I also loved my inefficient Infinity RSIIb speakers. What to do??? I decided to build an SET big enough so I could have both my speakers and my SET sound.
Your mileage may vary.

 

[genesisaudiorack]

What do you mean by "dull" and "neutered?"

Just a note: I'm unaware of amplifiers that have the ability to procreate. Can anyone supply an example?

like the liveliness and boom has been sucked out of it. the term neutered can also be used to describe "something that is missing".

 

[Jim Taylor]

sure maybe, but overall most of the solid state amps i hear are very dull and neutered.

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that an accurate solid state amp can subtract something form the signal that the modified tube amp that @Blumlein 88 suggested will put out.
No. If you have an accurate amp (of any topology), it will put out a signal that is the same as the input, only with gain. That means that if you input an accurate signal, you'll get an accurate signal out. If you put in a signal that is distorted in frequency response, THD and noise, you will get out a signal that is distorted in frequency response, THD and noise.
OTOH, any amp (of any topology) that is inaccurate will modify the signal. It will add distortion (how much is variable) and it may modify the frequency response (again, the degree to which it does that is variable).

From what you've posted, you seem to be attracted to inaccurate reproduction the way some men are attracted to women with heavy makeup. Not real, but very desirable.

There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has their own preference ... their own likes and dislikes. The problem comes from claiming that the sound that you prefer is "better", "more musical", "more accurate" or "more realistic". It's not. It's simply what you prefer ... nothing less and nothing more.

And BTW ... inaccurate systems will add (or subtract) the same way for all input signals. Beware of that.

 

[genesisaudiorack]

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that an accurate solid state amp can subtract something form the signal that the modified tube amp that @Blumlein 88 suggested will put out.
No. If you have an accurate amp (of any topology), it will put out a signal that is the same as the input, only with gain. That means that if you input an accurate signal, you'll get an accurate signal out. If you put in a signal that is distorted in frequency response, THD and noise, you will get out a signal that is distorted in frequency response, THD and noise.
OTOH, any amp (of any topology) that is inaccurate will modify the signal. It will add distortion (how much is variable) and it may modify the frequency response (again, the degree to which it does that is variable).

From what you've posted, you seem to be attracted to inaccurate reproduction the way some men are attracted to women with heavy makeup. Not real, but very desirable.

There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has their own preference ... their own likes and dislikes. The problem comes from claiming that the sound that you prefer is "better", "more musical", "more accurate" or "more realistic". It's not. It's simply what you prefer ... nothing less and nothing more.

And BTW ... inaccurate systems will add (or subtract) the same way for all input signals. Beware of that.

no i like clean amps, thats a bad example you made. and i have had distorted tube amps so i do agree with you on some tube amps. im not in that range of tube amp ownership anymore. if you were to ask me what i prefer? i like instrumental boom, bass clarity, tonality and shimmer in cy mbals as well as a snappy paper breaking snare sound. as close to how it was made to sound. i dont like distortion or coloration.

 

[Tell]

I'm really curious how many people would actually prefer their tube amplifier in a ABX test vs a solid state or D amp (excluding the frequency response deviations of course that could very much be done in a much better and more exact way with an PEQ). I mean bias IS a very powerful drug!

 

[Blumlein 88]

no i like clean amps, thats a bad example you made. and i have had distorted tube amps so i do agree with you on some tube amps. im not in that range of tube amp ownership anymore. if you were to ask me what i prefer? i like instrumental boom, bass clarity, tonality and shimmer in cy mbals as well as a snappy paper breaking snare sound. as close to how it was made to sound. i dont like distortion or coloration.

Your good Solid state amps aren't taking anything away. I know it is hard to believe. It was the reason I series connected amps. To find out how much SS amps were blocking or losing. To my surprise the answer was nothing. Feed it the output of a tube amp and it sounded like a tube amp. Reverse position of the amps and there was no difference between going thru a SS amp and a piece of wire. The tube amp was not equivalent to a piece of wire.

That sound you like is a coloration. It is okay to like it even to the point of using tube amps. The error is thinking Solid state is neutered and lacking. It leads to looking for a SS amp that sounds good like tubes. It's a futile search. Tubes can sound clean, but if they don't sound like accurate SS they aren't.

 

[Jim Taylor]

no i like clean amps, thats a bad example you made. and i have had distorted tube amps so i do agree with you on some tube amps. im not in that range of tube amp ownership anymore. if you were to ask me what i prefer? i like instrumental boom, bass clarity, tonality and shimmer in cy mbals as well as a snappy paper breaking snare sound. as close to how it was made to sound. i dont like distortion or coloration.

You posted:

sure maybe, but overall most of the solid state amps i hear are very dull and neutered.

and

like the liveliness and boom has been sucked out of it. the term neutered can also be used to describe "something that is missing".

Your posts are contradictory. Amplifiers are either accurate, or they're not. If they are accurate, all of their imperfections are below the threshold of hearing. If they exhibit characteristics that are audible, then they're not accurate, because the imperfections were not below the threshold of hearing.
Accurate amps don't "suck anything out" of the recording, and they can't cause anything to go "missing". If you listen to something on an accurate amp that is "dull and neutered", then either 1) the recording was dull and neutered, or 2) you have a problem with your speakers or room acoustics. Those are different problems.

 

[Cbdb2]

i dont like distortion or coloration.

Than why do you prefer amps that have distortion and coloration to SS ones that dont? You talk in circles and go nowhere. Im starting to wonder how much of what you hear is imagined.

 

[genesisaudiorack]

Than why do you prefer amps that have distortion and coloration to SS ones that dont? You talk in circles and go nowhere. Im starting to wonder how much of what you hear is imagined.

the only amps i prefer driven distortion is guitar tube amps.

i have owned other amps, ss and tube, way back moons ago. before my new journey re sparked.
recent times i had a pl-evo-int amp and you could say it was linearly colored and sounded pleasant until your ears become trained. virtually no perceived distortion until it was turned up say on my klipsch i once had. when i went to revel i immediately could decern and detect inaccuracies in the sound in the mildly to loud, and it was extremely pronounced in the revel speakers. i have since upgraded to what i think to be a more accurately represented audio circuit with more technology and output accuracy. uhm, i dont exactly want to seek for any distortion. and before you reply with "tubes inherently" distort and that may be true, it is also a highly wide band variable comment as that can be inaudible, minuscule, and or highly prominent. some tube amps distort really early, some dont really at all unless the pot is turned to 11. i would agree any distortion is unpleasant

 

[Blumlein 88]

the only amps i prefer driven distortion is guitar tube amps.

i have owned other amps, ss and tube, way back moons ago. before my new journey re sparked.
recent times i had a pl-evo-int amp and you could say it was linearly colored and sounded pleasant until your ears become trained. virtually no perceived distortion until it was turned up say on my klipsch i once had. when i went to revel i immediately could decern and detect inaccuracies in the sound in the mildly to loud, and it was extremely pronounced in the revel speakers. i have since upgraded to what i think to be a more accurately represented audio circuit with more technology and output accuracy. uhm, i dont exactly want to seek for any distortion. and before you reply with "tubes inherently" distort and that may be true, it is also a highly wide band variable comment as that can be inaudible, minuscule, and or highly prominent. some tube amps distort really early, some dont really at all unless the pot is turned to 11. i would agree any distortion is unpleasant

I think most tube sound is about frequency response, less damping on woofers and some differences in power ability at lower frequencies when played loud. The distortion thing I believe is way overblown as part of their sound. Most effects are down to the transformers. That is why the idea tube preamps give you tube sound doesn't really work. Unless designed on purpose to have some sound, a tube pre is quite capable of not offering coloration. Some tube power amps can get there, but they weren't common. I think a tube pre amp with an output transformer and loaded down to effectively be a mini-tube power amp of a watt or two could give people the tube sound. The people who like tubes mostly won't believe you however so I can see such product would have limited appeal.

Anyone who thinks tubes are mostly about that 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion can create such a result with Pkane's Distort software. I can save you the trouble and tell you that isn't where "tube sound" is coming from, but you can prove it to yourself if you wish.