olieb
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2023
- Messages
- 549
- Likes
- 959
I listen to all my music with a Van de Graaff generator running in the background.
Definitely the best hair rising performance. No speakers needed.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
If tubes amplifiers measure poorly, why are they perceived as sounding better?
- Thread starter dalbert02
- Start date
Definitely the best hair rising performance. No speakers needed.
We had this discussion before:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-we-crave-distortion.45978/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-we-crave-distortion.45978/
DonDish
Senior Member
I find it complicated to use these plugins for a number of reasons( Not specifically the ones you recommend here, I havent tried these). In general they are usually designed to add effect to single instruments and vocals. Applied to a mix they mostly muddy the sound, I think. Further, if you hit the spot on one track, it can sound like shait on another. Do you know of a better one for emulating typical HIFI tube equipment.?
For me these work (sound) perfectly fine - having said that, there are literally hundreds of such plugins available out there so there might be others that could better suit your needs
I guess this is more like a trial-and-error domain....
A tip: you may want to check out those that were modeled based on real-life hardware equipment, those might work better for you (such as the legendary tube-based Pultec EQ that has many VST incarnations or the other legendary Manley Passive EQ)
This case is solved.
I have owned and sold (as a part-time salesman to pay for my university studies) several tube power amps and a preamp too.
Some internationally renowned, others more artisanally and locally made but of high quality (brands unfortunately disappeared). That said, I did not talk about 300b type assemblies that I only listened to once or twice without pushing the volume too much, it was more push-pull.
None had any audible distortion if you did not leave their ideal operating point too much. Then it got a little worse. Especially in the bass it seems to me, compared to a Threshold SA 3/9e or a Krell. Now you will have to take my word for it because I did not do a test with a calibrated microphone and equalized levels, I should have.
At home I replaced all that with solid state, Hafler DH 200 then Audioanalyse B90 Mk II, much cheaper to buy second-hand (which is always problematic with tubes) and no need to change the tubes which cost an arm and a leg.
I have owned and sold (as a part-time salesman to pay for my university studies) several tube power amps and a preamp too.
Some internationally renowned, others more artisanally and locally made but of high quality (brands unfortunately disappeared). That said, I did not talk about 300b type assemblies that I only listened to once or twice without pushing the volume too much, it was more push-pull.
None had any audible distortion if you did not leave their ideal operating point too much. Then it got a little worse. Especially in the bass it seems to me, compared to a Threshold SA 3/9e or a Krell. Now you will have to take my word for it because I did not do a test with a calibrated microphone and equalized levels, I should have.
At home I replaced all that with solid state, Hafler DH 200 then Audioanalyse B90 Mk II, much cheaper to buy second-hand (which is always problematic with tubes) and no need to change the tubes which cost an arm and a leg.
Last edited:
Svend P
Active Member
Again? We just had a 41 page thread on the subject.
www.audiosciencereview.com
Are tubes more musical?
What is it that I’m hearing in my tube preamp and tubed headphone amp that is so romantic, warm, soft around the edges, and smooth, even syrupy sometimes? I’m not talking about hybrid amps or tube buffers. (My headphone amp is an OTL design, my preamp has no transistors in the audio circuit.) Do...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Yeah, let’s not…
Spot on; and the correct and only answer until OP does a blind test.
Five years ago I would have rushed down the "euphonic distortion" path or perhaps investigated "aural exciters". A lot has changed since then.
1st, we know a lot more now about how perception works. "How can I get these two sides of my brain to agree?". The 2 sides of your brain (perception and bias) are inextricably connected. A blind test is the only way to eliminate bias. We now have a much better understanding of how hearing works and if OP investigates the recent perceptual bias stuff the answers are there, and are fascinating.
2nd, Amir has tested and listened to lots of tube gear. The measurements are all over the place with no correlation to euphony. Amir, (an extremely experienced and acute listener) has yet to hear anything euphinic about any of them. The accurate tube gear measures close enough to transparent to be indistinguishable, yet sighted listeners (preferably in a salon after chablis and a tech/brand story pitch) will reliably hear massive differences. Unless, as Amir's, your bias rolls the other way.
I'd just close it and direct further discussion to one of the existing threads.Yeah, let’s not…
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2019
- Messages
- 12,393
- Likes
- 17,775
We locked those too
Just a quick comment to avoid annoying our fine moderation staff.
There's two different categories being conflated:
1. Engineered tube amps. And though their distortion is usually higher than a modern amp, it's still low enough that its audibility is questionable and should not be taken as a given. With some speakers, their source impedance may be high enough to cause audible frequency response errors. Those, of course, are trivially corrected. This category comprises the vast majority of tube amps ever made and sold. In well-controlled testing, they can rarely be distinguished from modern amps when run within their power limitations.
2. Fashion tube amps: These are basically table radio circuits with hugely expensive components. Their source impedances are almost invariably high enough to cause easily audible frequency response errors. Distortion is also in the clearly audible range when driving any but the most efficient speakers.
I think lumping them together because of the type of active device is an error. We can split solid state amps into (roughly) those same two categories.
There's two different categories being conflated:
1. Engineered tube amps. And though their distortion is usually higher than a modern amp, it's still low enough that its audibility is questionable and should not be taken as a given. With some speakers, their source impedance may be high enough to cause audible frequency response errors. Those, of course, are trivially corrected. This category comprises the vast majority of tube amps ever made and sold. In well-controlled testing, they can rarely be distinguished from modern amps when run within their power limitations.
2. Fashion tube amps: These are basically table radio circuits with hugely expensive components. Their source impedances are almost invariably high enough to cause easily audible frequency response errors. Distortion is also in the clearly audible range when driving any but the most efficient speakers.
I think lumping them together because of the type of active device is an error. We can split solid state amps into (roughly) those same two categories.
Both are useless then.
The sound at best will be the same as a solid state but never, ever will it be superior.
There remains the problem of the bass.
In addition, they cost much more without counting the periodic change of the tubes. And involve high currents.
For example, excuse me in advance for recalling my personal case, but I replaced my Classic 60 with a Hafler costing ten times less for an identical sound but with three times more power without the slightest distortion and in my opinion an unrivaled bass (it passed the infra-bass perhaps).
The sound at best will be the same as a solid state but never, ever will it be superior.
There remains the problem of the bass.
In addition, they cost much more without counting the periodic change of the tubes. And involve high currents.
For example, excuse me in advance for recalling my personal case, but I replaced my Classic 60 with a Hafler costing ten times less for an identical sound but with three times more power without the slightest distortion and in my opinion an unrivaled bass (it passed the infra-bass perhaps).
Last edited:
Ken1951
Major Contributor
I'm just smart enough to know what I don't know. Back in the dark ages when I worked for a hi-fi company in NoVA right after college I know I couldn't tell any difference between amps working within their design limits. A variety of amps and a variety of speakers: MC30s, MC240, Dyna 400, BGW250B, MC2300, Citation 12, Citation 16, Hafler, others I can't recall; Large Advents, Infinity 2000A, Magnapans, & others. If I wasn't doing something stupid like driving them into clipping no way I could tell any of them apart. I used very decent TTs and cartridges. Just enjoyed the music, don't ya know.
Once you get past audibility, you can't be "superior" by definition. The attraction of tube gear in reality has nothing to do with sonics. I love the stuff, design and build it, restore old units, but would never suggest that there's anything special about their sound.
Maybe a little EQ can work with the SS amp. Make the mid bass a bit pudgy, and roll off the highs a bit.
There are some obvious things to remember even here...
Yes, it's prettier, my Cochet pre & amp were classy.
The classic 60 (where you couldn't see the tubes gne!) was serious too. Unfortunately captive power cord for this type of device, uh how to say?
But a solid state with a very rectangular cabinet or even better mono blocks, it's impressive, very professional.
And it easily drives any speaker, from bass to treble, for less money.
What more could you ask for?
Yes, it's prettier, my Cochet pre & amp were classy.
The classic 60 (where you couldn't see the tubes gne!) was serious too. Unfortunately captive power cord for this type of device, uh how to say?
But a solid state with a very rectangular cabinet or even better mono blocks, it's impressive, very professional.
And it easily drives any speaker, from bass to treble, for less money.
What more could you ask for?
Last edited:
No need for that. Just build a tube amp that runs at 2300V plate voltage. 200 watt per channel directly heated triode SET sound has to be heard to be believed!I listen to all my music with a Van de Graaff generator running in the background.
Attachments
Last edited:
Looks cool (not in a thermal sense), but I'd rather not get into an intimate relationship with my electric company.
A 1600W space heater would be welcome here this week (11°F, getting down to about 7°F / -14°C by Thursday). I'm tempted to fire up the 300B amp sitting in the corner.
Re the 833 amp, I'm not sure how you can get 200W out of it. Class A SE has a max efficiency of 25%. Plate dissipation is about 350W, which means that running full tilt, the max output power would be about 85W or so.
Similar threads
