If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

[carnagymelton]

Very nicely done. It is hard to describe the experience to those who haven't gone through the trouble, which I have only done with DAC's. Much harder with amps... Thank you for taking it seriously enough to do it right.

So, it all comes down to speakers basically?

 

[andreasmaaan]

So, it all comes down to speakers basically?

...plus room/treatment, speaker/sub placement, and bass management.

 

[carnagymelton]

...plus room/treatment, speaker/sub placement, and bass management.

So if amplification and digital conversion are really easy things to pull off for basically no money, active speakers start looking more and more attractive.

 

[Deleted member 19195]

They actually do just that. Amir has reviewed a bunch of these. Most of them are called "hybrid" tube headphone amps, but what they really are are class D amps with a tube preamp stage. On one monoprice product, I'm not entirely sure if the tube was even connected in the circuit.

Peachtree is a well known example. Even they finally admitted the tube pre did nothing for the sound and added unnecessary complexity, cost, and failure point to the design.

 

[BDWoody]

So, it all comes down to speakers basically?

The speaker/room system is where this incredibly clean and pure electrical signal is transformed into a pressure wave that I physically interact with, and know as music.

Before then, it's in the realm of the EE, not the snake milker.

 

[StefaanE]

The speaker/room system is where this incredibly clean and pure electrical signal is transformed into a pressure wave that I physically interact with, and know as music.

Before then, it's in the realm of the EE, not the snake milker.

Actually, snake milking is an honourable and useful activity. Cold pressing them to extract snake oil on the other hand...

 

[levimax]

Absolutely fascinating. Thanks for going to that effort and reporting back, levimax!

And the ST-70 is supposed to be a pretty "classically tubey-sounding" tube amp, as I remember.

I've had numerous eye-opening experiences with blind testing, some of which undermined sonic differences I "heard" sighted, others that offered confirmation. It definitely left powerful lasting impressions that influence how I receive the claims of other audiophiles.

Even in the realm of objective measurement discussions and engineering, one tends to be guided by one's personal experience. How does this test affect your audio views of amps, tube amps etc going forward?

After switching out SS amps for Tubes and a class A amp for "summertime" use and not hearing any less magic I had all ready given up on 'tube magic". I then sent my ST-70 in to Amir to test and saw how "bad" it was so I figured that after being enlightened with superior SS amps it would be obvious how bad the ST-70 was. So I went from believing tubes sound better to believing SS sounds better to now "60 dB SINAD is good enough for me". That being said SS is so much easier and cooler and more powerful I will not be using tubes in my main system but I will keep the ST-70 around, fix it up a little, and pull it out from time to time for fun.

 

[Deleted member 19195]

I don't know why anyone would buy their speakers.

Or their turntables, for that matter.

Stick to what they're known for.

Same reason why people buy their windbreakers and keychains.

 

[Deleted member 19195]

Brand marketing?

bingo.

 

[mhardy6647]

Same reason why people buy their windbreakers and keychains.

You forgot the beach towels!

https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/merchandise/McIntosh-Towel

 

[MattHooper]

Peachtree is a well known example. Even they finally admitted the tube pre did nothing for the sound and added unnecessary complexity, cost, and failure point to the design.

I admit to having been somewhat suckered in by Peachtree years ago. I had a small SS amp in one system, when it went down I grabbed a Peachtree - as much for it's form factor and where it had to fit on a desk, as for it's performance. The tube did not seem to add anything at all "tube-like" to the sound. Seems completely for show.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Thanks for the replies to my question about McIntosh.

I can't speak to the quality of their amplifiers, but having heard in a few different stores those tall McIntosh speakers with the multiple small midrange drivers, there were one of the most reliably awful speakers I've ever heard.

I don't know why anyone would buy their speakers.

Or their turntables, for that matter.

Stick to what they're known for.

I totally accept that their speakers with lots of little drivers are in fact awful, but it's maybe of some interest to some to know that the basic principle on which they're based (aka the Bessel Array) is sound. McIntosh's implementation of it I don't know about...

 

[levimax]

OK final update on ABX of ST-70 vs Neurochrome Mod-86.... I had a 16 year old tester, who can hear MUCH better than I can and likes to show off, take the ABX test and he said "no difference". Makes me feel less deaf.

 

[Blumlein 88]

OK final update on ABX of ST-70 vs Neurochrome Mod-86.... I had a 16 year old tester, who can hear MUCH better than I can and likes to show off, take the ABX test and he said "no difference". Makes me feel less deaf.

Do you think he was really trying? Did you offer him maybe $100 if he was correct 15 of 20 trials?

Oh one last suggestion. Try stereo with one amp on one channel and the higher gain amp attenuated to match on the opposite channel. Does it sound normal that way? Because somewhere, somehow, sometime, somebody will tell you it would have sounded different in stereo.

 

[levimax]

Do you think he was really trying? Did you offer him maybe $100 if he was correct 15 of 20 trials?

Oh one last suggestion. Try stereo with one amp on one channel and the higher gain amp attenuated to match on the opposite channel. Does it sound normal that way? Because somewhere, somehow, sometime, somebody will tell you it would have sounded different in stereo.

His motivation was to show off which is strong motivation for him... it wore off quickly when he realized he couldnt hear any difference

I am missing my main system so started to put it back together so no stereo test.... If i get that argument i will have to quote Toole I guess.

 

[andreasmaaan]

His motivation was to show off which is strong motivation for him... it wore off quickly when he realized he couldnt hear any difference

I am missing my main system so started to put it back together so no stereo test.... If i get that argument i will have to quote Toole I guess.

That will endear you immediately to an audience who would ask such questions

 

[Julf]

So if amplification and digital conversion are really easy things to pull off for basically no money, active speakers start looking more and more attractive.

Indeed. That is one of the reasons why actives are pretty much the norm in pro audio. Going active also allows much better control of crossovers and individual drivers than the rather primitive and inflexible crossovers in passive speakers.

 

[carnagymelton]

Indeed. That is one of the reasons why actives are pretty much the norm in pro audio. Going active also allows much better control of crossovers and individual drivers than the rather primitive and inflexible crossovers in passive speakers.

I am moving to an active speaker setup. Always wanted to, but based on this thread am now committed to it.

 

[StefaanE]

I bought two active speakers (Nubert nuPro X-8000 RC) a couple of months ago. They are quite superb, especially with a digital path from source (CD or streaming) to amplification in the speakers and room correction to take care of the room modes. I use my Marantz 5013 for movies only now.

 

[cd45123]

I have to learn how to do this level match. I could have sworn I heard a difference between a Purifi and Hegel amp.