If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

[VintageFlanker]

New talk from Audioholics. For now, I only watched it partially.... Looks like this is more about: If tubes doesn't sound transparent, why some people still subjectivly like it?

As always, kudos to these guys for promoting science over myths for the last 20 years.

 

[egellings]

One possible enticement of tubes is that as they age out and the performance starts to sag, the amp they're in will lose sound quality over time at an imperceptible rate, sort of like a pair of freshly washed eyeglasses slowly getting dirty as the day wears on. Then you finally decide it's time to replace the tubes or wash the eyeglasses again, and wow--what an improvement in sound or vision. It's a big jump and it's quite enjoyable. The transistors never get 'dirty', so you don't experience this little periodic pleasure with them.

 

[jsrtheta]

In order:

1. Fun. It's enjoyable for some (like me) to use old technologies and see what performance can be scraped out of them. Think of someone restoring a 1959 Avanti. I also take advantage of the high available voltage swings for things like mike and phono preamps as well as electrostatic direct drive.

2. I think the notion of "tubey sound" is bullshit. Bad tube designs can be bright, dull, fuzzy, overly sharp, whatever. A bad amp is a bad amp, a good amp is a good amp, whatever active devices are being used. Tube rolling is something to keep technical ignoramuses busy, much like cable swapping or re-capping. You don't need to know anything, you just have to have a credit card.

3. The whole point of making a good tube amp is to get a low output impedance, sufficient current/voltage swing for the intended load, and anything else that defines a good amp, irrespective of active devices.

4. Yes. There may even be advantages for a guitar amp given the voltage sag under load. For audio reproduction, tube rectifiers are at best benign and at worst a severe performance degradation.

5. All of them, but most of all, output transformers are the key to getting rid of the amp's effect on sound.

6. See number 1.

1959 Avanti?

 

[SIY]

1959 Avanti?

I'm clearly not a car guy.

 

[A800]

Listening without tubes is like eating dry bread.

 

[egellings]

You gits to pay for a permanent commercial in your room!

 

[A800]

Wrong.
They got to pay me.
And it's not my room.
And no commercials.

 

[egellings]

Love those little grottos the 6SN7's are sitting in.

 

[Denman]

I only recently started my tube amp adventure, and I (subjectively, without measurement) hear quite a difference to a non-tube amp.

The thing I like about the tube amp is that I can wilfully introduce distortion to get a sound that is different, unique, yet still pleasing to my ear.
A "clean" tube amp makes little sense to me, there are simply better alternatives, both in technology, longevity and price point.

I enjoy a holographic, breathy sound that I'm hearing. It lacks punchy bass and bass control, it's by no means perfect amplification, but it gives me the idea that it's more lively, or maybe "live" as in I hear the same distortion characteristics when hearing a live band play in a bar (with their own over-distorted tube amps usually).

As for tube rolling, I have limited experience so far, but I can imagine different sound characteristics might have more to do with the wear and tear (storage condition, as a lot of tubes said to have "characteristics" are old, and from areas like the former USSR, and burning hours) of different tubes than actual consciously implemented differences by a manufacturer.

To me, it's not subjectively better or worse, just a different experience that I equally enjoy.

 

[sherm137]

I only recently started my tube amp adventure, and I (subjectively, without measurement) hear quite a difference to a non-tube amp.

The thing I like about the tube amp is that I can wilfully introduce distortion to get a sound that is different, unique, yet still pleasing to my ear.
A "clean" tube amp makes little sense to me, there are simply better alternatives, both in technology, longevity and price point.

I enjoy a holographic, breathy sound that I'm hearing. It lacks punchy bass and bass control, it's by no means perfect amplification, but it gives me the idea that it's more lively, or maybe "live" as in I hear the same distortion characteristics when hearing a live band play in a bar (with their own over-distorted tube amps usually).

As for tube rolling, I have limited experience so far, but I can imagine different sound characteristics might have more to do with the wear and tear (storage condition, as a lot of tubes said to have "characteristics" are old, and from areas like the former USSR, and burning hours) of different tubes than actual consciously implemented differences by a manufacturer.

To me, it's not subjectively better or worse, just a different experience that I equally enjoy.

Would you mind sharing which tube amps gave you this experience?

 

[Denman]

Would you mind sharing which tube amps gave you this experience?

Of course. I'm dabbling with a Yaqin MC-13S.

I also have (limited) access to my father in-laws Jadis tube amp with Martin Logan electrostats, which is a different order of gear of course.
Him being a purist, he's trying to get the "perfect sound", listening to footsteps on gravel and squeaky doors opening most of the time.

Me, I'm just enjoying trying something new, getting more experiences with different pieces of equipment while enjoying some good music.

 

[Julf]

Again I can recommend the modern approach: Vintage tube simulator plugin

 

[PaulD]

Again I can recommend the modern approach: Vintage tube simulator plugin

They work extremely well! I have participated in blind tests between valve studio equipment and the equivalent Universal Audio software simulation (runs only on their interfaces) - there was no audible difference. I have not tested the Wave Arts plugins, but the emulation technology is so good these days that there is no need for the hardware any more. (Apart from "bling" factor of course, if that's your thing.) Even the most adamant guitarists are converts.

 

[Denman]

(Apart from "bling" factor of course, if that's your thing.)

To me that's like trying to understand love by reading about it in a book.

The complete experience, from forming the plan, reading about it on forums for days, weeks, months even, to aquiring a new piece of gear for a great price. The anticipation of setting it all up, seeing that "bling" sitting there, ready for exploration and discovery, all that is what makes it special in the first place imo.

Doesn't matter if it's a tube amp or a class D, I'm enjoying the journey, and am not in a hurry to get to the destination.
Moreover, once the destination is in sight, I'm ready to start a new journey.

 

[PolkFan]

I personally think i would rather listen to my solid state amp all day almost every day BUT at times with some older movies and games i wouldn't mind having a tube amp for vintage stuff.

Reminds me of my younger days.

However i do not own a tube amp i have OCD and i can't stand having things i rarely use its just something about me sadly.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I have tube amplifier plugins to use if I wish but that means playing files from my computer. I rarely do that.
I do have a valve amp which I can use but usually leave it not connected but on top of my record cabinet to enjoy its styling. It comes out from time to time but I can't say I notice any particularly attractive aspect to the sound. Mind you, I play it through horns which have a high impedance so its effect on the FR will be small.

 

[Denman]

I have tube amplifier plugins to use if I wish but that means playing files from my computer. I rarely do that.
I do have a valve amp which I can use but usually leave it not connected but on top of my record cabinet to enjoy its styling. It comes out from time to time but I can't say I notice any particularly attractive aspect to the sound. Mind you, I play it through horns which have a high impedance so its effect on the FR will be small.

Send me the tube amp, and I'll send you back a picture of it, it'll look just as great

 

[Wombat]

I personally think i would rather listen to my solid state amp all day almost every day BUT at times with some older movies and games i wouldn't mind having a tube amp for vintage stuff.

Reminds me of my younger days.

However i do not own a tube amp i have OCD and i can't stand having things i rarely use its just something about me sadly.

There is of course obsessive compulsive acquisition disorder where having lots of things is the aim.

Maybe you are a minimalist. Not a bad way to be.

I am struggling with organising and storing 1000 CDs and even though I say "that's enough" another one sneaks into my mail-box on a regular basis.. At least I don't buy LPs anymore and my 800 or so are suitable organised. 5000 or more would do my mind in.

At least with gear, I don't have multiples doing much the same thing unless there is unique additional useful feature.

Given my age I haven't purchased lots of gear. Choose carefully, enjoy and keep.

 

[Wombat]

Did anyone say "Why not"? No accounting for taste preference.

 

[Denman]

There is of course obsessive compulsive acquisition disorder where having lots of things is the aim.

I've heard that around 49.6% of the worlds population suffers from this