If all speakers measure flat, what is the point of auditioning?

[Mr. Widget]

I'm not talking about high-end stuff per se. But most of the (millions) of $20-100 Bluetooth speakers are bought sound-unheard. Probably the same goes for most lifestyle speakers. So numerically speaking, I would bet big bucks that the majority (maybe the vast majority) of speakers sold are not auditioned first.

Oh. I wasn't considering that landfill-in-waiting.

Edit: That stuff is rarely properly measured... or even measured by the manufacturers during development or production.

 

[JustJones]

Timely question I'm pondering a speaker purchase from measurements only as I have no way of listening to them and the only measurements I've seen are from the manufacturer.
ME Geithan RL934K

 

[Jaxjax]

Oh. I wasn't considering that landfill-in-waiting.

Edit: That stuff is rarely properly measured... or even measured by the manufacturers during development or production.

I do suspect the JBL tube stuff did...I should send in a JBL charge 3-4-5 or whichever there on now...lol

 

[Mr. Widget]

Timely question I'm pondering a speaker purchase from measurements only as I have no way of listening to them and the only measurements I've seen are from the manufacturer.
ME Geithan RL934K

Question for you, since this is not enough data to base a purchase on, why would you consider these speakers?

I assume there is more data... you like their price, their looks, or the manufacturer.

 

[JustJones]

Question for you, since this is not enough data to base a purchase on, why would you consider these speakers?

I assume there is more data... you like their price, their looks, or the manufacturer.

Reputation of the brand and a pretty good deal. They're coaxial and cardioid in the bass. I've heard other coaxial Kef and Genelec and cardioid Dutch and Dutch. These are cheaper than the Dutch 8c and I really have no place for subwoofers except right underneath. I get your point it's not measurements only but without the limited ones from the manufacturer I doubt I would be thinking as hard as I am about going for them.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Reputation of the brand and a pretty good deal. They're coaxial and cardioid in the bass. I've heard other coaxial Kef and Genelec and cardioid Dutch and Dutch. These are cheaper than the Dutch 8c and I really have no place for subwoofers except right underneath. I get your point it's not measurements only but without the limited ones from the manufacturer I doubt I would be thinking as hard as I am about going for them.

That's a tough call...

But it does focus on a weakness in the premise of this thread. In addition to the vote between auditioning a speaker or relying on its measurements, there are other important factors to consider:

A Partial List (in no particular order)
1. The reputation of the designer/manufacturer
2. The type of speaker design
3. The size
4. The cost
5. Aesthetics

 

[JustJones]

Partial List (in no particular order)
1. The reputation of the designer/manufacturer
2. The type of speaker design
3. The size
4. The cost

As to 1. Which is to me a very important factor and honestly the main reason I'm waffling. At least in this instance, the reputation of the speakers I've found to be positive from others who've owned or heard them but if a problem arises the reputation of the manufacturer seems to be less stellar especially if you don't live in Germany.

 

[benanders]

I recently ordered a pair of speakers after reading Erin's and a SoundOnSound review. Let's hope the in-room-response improves on my current living room setup. Otherwise my "faith" in measurements/spinorama would be shattered.

… we tend to overestimate the chances for satisfaction … when we select through uncontrolled listening auditions, and we tend to underestimate the chances for success from buying "blind" using measurements ...

… I didn't get "lucky" - I made an informed decision and the chances were very good that I would not be disappointed.

...

@napfkuchen and @tmtomh it’s fortuitous your posts were sandwiched together given my recurrent concern re: speaker measurements and how consumers apply them.

Knowing measurements going into listening/purchase is a form of expectation bias just as consideration for aesthetics, manufacturer/brand, price point or any other form of sighted risk.

Only if the preference study leg of the [limited] underlying research for spins were (1) far more exhaustive of speaker models and/or (2) 100% consistent among a larger body of human subjects, might it be fully safe to assume “good measurements = good speaker for me.” An individual could also have the actual study replicated on him/herself - that’d do the trick, too.

There are almost always outliers in a sample population; contrasting/syncing listening to a wide range of speakers/designs over some years with personal preferences, I came to realize I’m probably an outlier in stereo playback goals. … Dang?
What do “you” prefer? A study of measurements-predicted preference shows whether subjects in the test population deviate from a normal distribution and, if so, (hopefully) how; it won’t generally tell a reader of the study whether he/she deviates from the normal distribution and, if so, how - that part is often just assumed by readers, and it’s a potential source of flawed (personal) interpretation for implications.

I know, I know, I’m pushing a chance exception to a much-touted rule of thumb. But that is an important part of any ROT derived with the scientific method - appropriate acknowledgement of all results and integrating them through meaningful discussion. And not overreaching with one’s own assumptions drawn from the study’s implications.

For that reason, the unequivocal answer to the survey is No, you cannot (necessarily) “shop solely from measurements alone” if you intend to do so with individually robust results and/or an aim to prevent expectation bias. That’s not the same as my saying it can’t work out in your favor, mind ya (or even that all expectation bias is bad!)

It’s already clear how differently people can enjoy their hearing, so there’s no perfectly right way to skin this cat, just different ways.

Edit: couple minor grammar quibbles

 

[Jaxjax]

Reason I am sceptical of measurement only for musical pleasure is simply because, I know the core 47 measured badly on ASR & I have its bigger brother which is fantastic in every way with very very mild EQ. You can move around on couch, even leave the listen position all together & very little changes. Nothing is offensive & has everything I want from 40Hz up. MY Audio Physics in my bedroom would measure bad too I assume...but they get no EQ & I hear nothing I would change...low SPL gig there though. I would however look at ASR data before I bought again...but I would surely only buy from a 30 return place or no sell to me..I have had monitors that are liked here & I tried everything to get along with them in my 30 days.. nope boxed & gone.
So all I'm saying is buying any speaker by measurements only & no chance of return is awfully risky to me.
Joe

 

[allmanfan]

I'm not talking about high-end stuff per se. But most of the (millions) of $20-100 Bluetooth speakers are bought sound-unheard. Probably the same goes for most lifestyle speakers. So numerically speaking, I would bet big bucks that the majority (maybe the vast majority) of speakers sold are not auditioned first.

totally agree regarding something in the 20-100 dollar range of products I do it myself but in terms of costly equipment it is crazy

 

[napfkuchen]

@napfkuchen and @tmtomh it’s fortuitous your posts were sandwiched together given my recurrent concern re: speaker measurements and how consumers apply them.

...

For that reason, the unequivocal answer to the survey is No, you cannot (necessarily) “shop solely from measurements alone” if you intend to do so with individually robust results and/or an aim to prevent expectation bias. That’s not the same as my saying it can’t work out in your favor, mind ya (or even that all expectation bias is bad!)

The problem for me was that the speakers with the features I wanted within my budget simply weren't available at a local dealer. And to be honest, I don't want to spend days in hi-fi stores or at hi-fi shows listening to the "room" anyway. After all you have to consider a loudspeaker at home can have completely different characteristics than in the dealer's demonstration room. My living room is only minimally optimized acoustically and is not very large (approx. 30m² with a listening area of approx. 16m²). I picked out a speaker that, according to the measured values, promises a good sound under these circumstances and interacts less with the walls.
I'm actually quite confident about that, because when it came to my other speakers, the Genelec 8331A, which was significantly better (unfortunately also more expensive) according to the measured values, clearly prevailed over the Focal Solo6 and replaced a pair of Adam Artist 5s. In particular, the measurement with GLM, imaging and the background noise, which is inaudible even at close distances, were crucial here.
The speakers should be here in two weeks so I can test listen. If I don't like the characteristics of the sound 100%, I can still use Dirac to bend the frequency response to my liking.

 

[Mart68]

totally agree regarding something in the 20-100 dollar range of products I do it myself but in terms of costly equipment it is crazy

Crazy like a fox! Been doing it all my adult life.

For electronics you can know exactly what you're getting and speaker demos are only useful if in your own room anyway.

Bought dozens of speakers blind over the decades, and the only ones that didn't perform as expected were Lowther Acoustas. And they were only £30 as the seller was moving house that day and couldn't take them with him.

I've bought a few that were better than I expected though.