ID22 DAC Not Sounding Too Good

[SK123]

Based on the measurements @bennetng posted in post #11, it won't be possible to gain any audible improvement over your current sound card - its performance is already beyond the level at which humans can hear distortion or noise.

If you're looking for future upgrade options, I would consider loudspeakers, subs, and/or changes to room setup/treatment. These are the areas were significant potential performance gains lie.

I am planning on getting the Lsr310s sub for my speakers. Hopefully that will enhance them further.

 

[dfuller]

With very sensitive active monitors (Focal Shape 65s) I noticed that the iD22 I used to own was fairly noisy as interfaces go. That said it didn't "reduce soundstage" or anything like that... I wonder if, perhaps, you have Mono mode turned on on the iD22.

 

[SK123]

With very sensitive active monitors (Focal Shape 65s) I noticed that the iD22 I used to own was fairly noisy as interfaces go. That said it didn't "reduce soundstage" or anything like that... I wonder if, perhaps, you have Mono mode turned on on the iD22.

If you're referring to the dot between both knobs on the interface software, than I used both options. When running games such as BF5 is only when I used the mono, and I believe the next one was stereo with two dots showing. It sounds similar in my Asus software as well when switching between game and music modes.

 

[BDWoody]

Hopefully sometime near future if money isn't an issue ( and have larger space to live) thinking about getting 708p speakers. Unless their's better option available.

Keep your eye out for their B-Stock sales.
I love my 708's (and 705's).

 

[SK123]

Keep your eye out for their B-Stock sales.
I love my 708's (and 705's).

Thanks!

 

[dfuller]

If you're referring to the dot between both knobs on the interface software, than I used both options. When running games such as BF5 is only when I used the mono, and I believe the next one was stereo with two dots showing. It sounds similar in my Asus software as well when switching between game and music modes.

No, not that - this thing I circled is "sum to mono". It's assigned to one of the function keys (which will light up when you enable it).

 

[SK123]

No, not that - this thing I circled is "sum to mono". It's assigned to one of the function keys (which will light up when you enable it).

No, didn't play with those. I thought those buttons were for assigning functions only.

Another thing I noticed, and I could be wrong also but its that the construction of this unit felt quite cheap as well. From the housing itself to the toggle switches. The knobs were just basic I guess. I can understand that they want to minimize the weight of the product, but it just felt cheaply made, and of size of a telephone unit from 30 yrs ago.

 

[AnalogSteph]

With very sensitive active monitors (Focal Shape 65s) I noticed that the iD22 I used to own was fairly noisy as interfaces go.

I'd assume that the analog output stage is a straightforward fixed-gain job much like the Xonars... 0 dBFS @ +18 dBu, so 114 dB(A) translates to a noise level of -96 dBu(A). The Shape 65 seems to reach full output (109 dB SPL nominal, S&R review may even indicate 112 dB) at +4 dBu in for the balanced input, with no input attenuator. So you can hope for a noise level of 9 dB(A) SPL (or even 12 dB(A) SPL) @ 1 m in this combination at best, even though the monitors themselves should manage 0 dB SPL (20 dB SPL @ 10 cm).

That's the kind of stuff that happens when two components that each provide sufficient dynamic range individually do not agree on levels but neither makes an effort to provide some dynamic range management to rectify this issue. It's the same kind of silliness that tends to require DACs with >120 dB of dynamic range when driving common power amplifiers directly. Much the same here - 124 dB minimum, preferably a bit more.

IMHO, the lack of an input level control on the Shapes is a grave oversight. You pretty much have to use an extra monitor controller or mixer with these. Yes, it would have been nice if the iD22 had an analog output level control (like a number of much cheaper interfaces do, some out of sheer necessity), but it doesn't, presumably in the interest of better measured performance. The ideal partner for the Shapes and other offenders would be an RME ADI-2 family converter with their +4 dBu range.

 

[carlo]

It's a bit pearls before swine right now, true, but that's another matter altogether. Might as well be putting those 120 dB(A) ADCs to good use while the thing is around.

BTW, I'm a bit puzzled by the mic preamp specs on the iD22. I think Audient may be specifying SNR relative to +4 dBu out or something, that would match Amir's iD4 measurements very well (he got a dynamic range of 106 dB(A) near 0 dBFS, converters are spec'd with 114 dB(A) and a +12 dBu input level, so the mic preamp would seem to be achieving ~107 dB(A) ref. +12 dBu = ~99 dB(A) ref. +4 dBu, and spec is... 99 dB(A)). It may be prioritizing distortion over highest dynamic range; seems to be a rather traditional design anyway (opamp with discrete frontend). The -125 dBu EIN spec also has to be extremely conservative, given that Julian Krause got a very good -129/-130 dBu on the iD14.

Given that the Xonar STX line-level is a standard 2 Vrms (+8 dBu), it may not be possible to evaluate its full dynamic range... the iD22 mic preamp + A/D is likely to top out at 111-112 dB(A) or so, and the inserts that are providing a direct path to the ADCs would deliver 120 dB(A) relative to +18 dBu, and distortion measurement would likely be far more accurate like that but there would be no benefit to noise, as we wouldn't get beyond -10 dBFS in. That said, we're mainly looking for issues that are more or less glaringly obvious, not hiding in diminishing returns terrain.

One strength of the iD22 lies in being able to use the microphone preamps and the ADC standalone via balanced send/return jacks (max output = +22 dBu, max input = +18 dBu). This rather traditional studio gear approach and circuitry, however, may also be a disadvantage. Julian Krause found several dB better mic (preamp + A/D) input dynamic range on the little Audient EVO 4 compared to the iD14, which should be close to the iD22. For measurements, a better (higher dynamic range) mic preamp may be advisable. The ADC itself is about as good as all but a few out there, it just lacks the input level flexibility associated with studio-grade equipment that extends their total dynamic range (e.g. RME ADI-2 FS - +4 dB / +13 dBu / +19 dBu selectable; the ADI-2 Pro FS will accommodate +24 dBu as well, and traditional mastering converters would accept up to +28 dBu, though such extreme levels really aren't required any more).

It's surprising how hard getting substantially beyond 110 dB of input dynamic range can be. I guess this has been deemed sufficient for typical studio work - which, quite honestly, it is if you know anything about level management. (You can buy studio-grade ADCs with around 130 dB worth of dynamic range, which have their uses when interactive adjustment of gain is not an option yet a microphone's full dynamic range is to be captured. This performance level was actually reached at least 22 years ago.) Still, it would be nice if the mic preamp at least wasn't substantially limiting the ADC, preferably without having to shell out the 2 grand for an Earthworks 1022.

Just my 2 cents on Evo 4... I have this unit and so far very happy about it. As a mic preamp it's very clean and natural; doesn't have all the gain stated in the specs, though. Julian Krause measured less then the 58 db stated but the quality is really good. Tried with a low output condenser mic, at highest gain and raised the level in post by 10 db without any issue. As for the headphone output, I found it quite louder in comparison with my iMac headphone out and much better in quality, both with 55ohms and 150 ohms headphones. I also own an Apogee Groove dac/amp which can probably drive my headphones even a bit louder, but my ears would go damaged so no actual need. What I like in the EVO is that quality is still there at every gain level. The single knob feature is really very handy once you get used to it ( let's say half an hour).
The unit is class compliant ( didn't try yet with iPhone or iPad ) and can even work as standalone with a PC. I've powered it with a 5v cell phone battery and used as "inline preamp" with my Zoom h6; while not bypassing H6' preamps I've noticed a decrease of noise and a deeper and cleaner tone of the recording compared to using only Zoom's mic inputs.