ID22 DAC Not Sounding Too Good

[SK123]

Here is a sound comparison of ID22 with Apollo 8 (over 3x the price difference) and on my speakers ID22 sounded better.

Somewhere else this unit was also compared with Apollo Twin and people were commenting how ID22 sounded superior. I only purchased ID22 for it's superior DAC (and also that I am beginning to learn playing electric guitar). Sadly, I was really unimpressed by the sound quality because it reduced the soundstage of my speakers by ~50% (JBL 305). When I switched back to my Asus soundcard Essence STX II, it back again begin to sound all that lovely and musical (Both times the setting was +4dbu on speakers).

This $400 USD upgrade was complete garbage and I am returning the unit. The soundcard also uses Burr Brown DAC chip but probably much lower category than this interface, just needed to know why this interface sounded too inferior? I didn't play with any of the toggle switches on the board, don't know if that would increase the sound quality?

Needed some suggestions please if it is wise to return this product or to keep it? It retails for $500 USD but got it for $400 ($530 CAD).

I am also eyeing BOSS GT 1000-core effects processor. It's about $700 USD, very compact and claims of have "ultra powerful DSP 32bit/96khz AD and DA internal process".
Was wondering if this unit would be a good investment for future speaker upgrades as well as for current rig? As well as better guitar recording, as soon as I get better of course.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Number one question, did you match levels of the two devices? Matching by ear isn't good enough. You need to have matched with a multimeter and test tone.

Also you said you didn't change any toggles, but how were they set. For instance one of them is a low end roll off filter. Did you have that filter in or out of circuit? There also is a DSP mixer were any of those settings changing the sound?

The ID22 should be transparent or very close to it though I've not had hands on one.

BTW, I'm not even sure the difference was real, but I slightly preferred B in the video. I then went to the youtube site itself and see B was the Apollo. Since they have the files for download I'll download them and compare in Deltawave.

Edit: I couldn't download the files so can't compare in Deltawave.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Also, although your Essence STX II measures relatively poorly, its noise/distortion are unlikely to be audible. Chances are any upgrade you make will not lead to audibly better sound.

 

[AnalogSteph]

You've got a high-grade audio interface at your disposal. Do some RMAA loopback testing using both output setups. If there is anything major amiss, it should show up clear as day.

The specs for PCM1796 and PCM1798 actually are very similar. Could be essentially the same chip, only that the '1798 also supports 2-to-1 mono output mode. If you're not using that, they should be equivalent.

I think the STX II scoring bad was related to internal grounding issues, I think all the Xonars with extra power supply connectors are a bit problematic in that regard.

 

[SK123]

Thank you so much guys for your suggestions.

Blumlein 88: I have very recently ordered a multimeter and should be receiving shortly in a couple of days, so I will do the tests as you suggested as soon as I receive it. The toggles were at the default factory setting, as well as the knobs above them (pic attached). I didn't bother to touch those. Actually this board was placed away from my tiny computer desk, so couldn't just reach to it lol.

andreasmaaan: I actually am starting to love my sound card more and more, for such a low cost (under $200 usd bought 4 yrs ago) it performs stunningly. Now that I match it against a unit that rivals $1000 interfaces/DACs, the soundcard sounds outstanding.

AnalogSteph: If the DAC chip are almost the same, than it doesn't make any sense for me to own is $400 piece of equipment, at least at this stage as I am just beginning on the guitars and won't be recording solos and tracks for at least 1 or 2 yrs. I thought this unit would be a nice, high end piece of equipment to own, but it's been really disappointing. Anyway, I have downloaded the RMAA program and will perform all the tests mentioned here as soon as I get the multimeter.

Btw I am learning guitar online at Fender Play which is currently 3 mths free. if somebody might be interested.

 

[SK123]

You've got a high-grade audio interface at your disposal. Do some RMAA loopback testing using both output setups. If there is anything major amiss, it should show up clear as day.
.

Can you please shed a bit more light on how to perform this test? There seem a lot of options in this software and what are the both output setups? Thanks!!

 

[Blumlein 88]

Both output setups is using the input/output of your Essence STX, and using the inputs/outputs of your Audient.
In the upper drop down box you should be able to select either as your "Recording/Playback Device". Lower left you can click on the Run Tests box. It should do the rest and give you results after a couple minutes. You'll need to connect input/output on each device as you test it with cables.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Replug XLRs from speakers to iD22 input. Input gain = minimum for now. Phantom power = off.
Set up RMAA: Select ASIO input and output devices if possible (channel mapping can be edited by clicking the ASIO button once selected), 96 kHz at 24 or 32 bit.
Make sure "Adjust playback recording levels" is ticked.

Hit "Playback/Recording" button, which should first bring up the level adjustment window with live spectrum. Now bring up output level (if possible) until amplitude reaches -1 to -3 dB. Make sure there is no gross distortion to be seen. If level still is low, increase input gain on the iD22 for both input channels until you're in the green and levels between left and right channel match. Proceed with testing.
Post an HTML report or a SAV file of the measurement.

I'd start with the existing STX-based setup since I think the iD22 can take more level than the STX line-out can dish out, which should make things fairly easy to dial in.

 

[SK123]

Replug XLRs from speakers to iD22 input. Input gain = minimum for now. Phantom power = off.
Set up RMAA: Select ASIO input and output devices if possible (channel mapping can be edited by clicking the ASIO button once selected), 96 kHz at 24 or 32 bit.
Make sure "Adjust playback recording levels" is ticked.

Hit "Playback/Recording" button, which should first bring up the level adjustment window with live spectrum. Now bring up output level (if possible) until amplitude reaches -1 to -3 dB. Make sure there is no gross distortion to be seen. If level still is low, increase input gain on the iD22 for both input channels until you're in the green and levels between left and right channel match. Proceed with testing.
Post an HTML report or a SAV file of the measurement.

I'd start with the existing STX-based setup since I think the iD22 can take more level than the STX line-out can dish out, which should make things fairly easy to dial in.

Hey Steph,

For the very first part i'm a bit confused, not sure whether you meant line-in of the ID22 which are instrument/mic, or the regular way of connecting speakers to output (which I did for now until you confirm) and ran the tests. It didn't provide me with any report file after the test, just msg "Cannot find sync signal at the recorded waveform. Try to adjust playback/recording levels".

Following is what I wrote down when conducting test:

"Test 1 TRS OUT: (before running test) PROBLEM: The input level is low. Try to increase recording or playback levels in your mixer. Test result: Cannot find sync signal at the recorded waveform. Try to adjust playback/recording levels.

Test 2 TRS OUT: (before running test) PROBLEM: The input level is low. After turning both gain knobs to max, Distortion (Clipping?) is marked for the right box. The green line reaches up to -30 max. Test result: Cannot find sync signal at the recorded waveform. Try to adjust playback/recording levels."

While keeping the gain knobs at min, the green line reaches -96 db max. Also used ASIO for the both boxes on the upper left.

Blumlein 88: Both ins and outs are connected. I hope D.!. counts as in, have guitar effects board connecting it, but the line and mic were empty.

 

[AnalogSteph]

While keeping the gain knobs at min, the green line reaches -96 db max. Also used ASIO for the both boxes on the upper left

Then you'll probably want to revisit your ASIO channel mapping, my guess would be that you're not using the correct inputs or outputs. The iD22 in particular should have multiple input pairs to offer, with the XLRs presumably listed as some sort of microphone input.

 

[bennetng]

although your Essence STX II measures relatively poorly

I think the STX II scoring bad was related to internal grounding issues

It was a driver issue forced the card to operate in 16-bit and all results in the first post of the review are affected. Amir did a proper 24-bit test later on.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f-asus-stx-ii-pci-sound-card.4915/post-111244

Actually, slightly better than the Audient iD4 in terms of SINAD. Anyway I don't think the issue is related to the DAC chips, likely software-related.

 

[SK123]

Then you'll probably want to revisit your ASIO channel mapping, my guess would be that you're not using the correct inputs or outputs. The iD22 in particular should have multiple input pairs to offer, with the XLRs presumably listed as some sort of microphone input.

It all feels like some sort of puzzle to me. I will probably return this piece until I get better with all this audio stuff and know exactly what I want. Right out of the box, this doesn't seem to be impressing me a bit. It only sounds somewhat brighter to me, but all the background music and effects are far superior on the soundcard, while they diminish with this unit.

 

[Bamboszek]

First of all, check if you have any DSP options enabled in Xonar drivers.
I suspect that you may get used to some kind of virtual surround or EQ processing which are popular in consumer cards. Now, when everything is normal with iD22 it might sound flat without DSP.
I own Audient iD4 and it reaches solid 90 to 100 dB of SINAD in loopback.

 

[SK123]

First of all, check if you have any DSP options enabled in Xonar drivers.
I suspect that you may get used to some kind of virtual surround or EQ processing which are popular in consumer cards. Now, when everything is normal with iD22 it might sound flat without DSP.
I own Audient iD4 and it reaches solid 90 to 100 dB of SINAD in loopback.

In the Asus software, I can't find anything mentioning DSP options, but their's something called FlexBass where their are options given to choose small or large speakers. I have it on large. With small speakers select, these JBL 305 sound like any basic pair of speakers (like a $50 one), when you select 'large' they turn to some high-end speaker like performance.

Their's also LFE crossover frequency, which is set to its default 120hz.

 

[AnalogSteph]

If you don't have a sub connected, disable FlexBass entirely. (Also turn off EQ and SVN.) As an alternative to the standard Asus control panel, you can try XonarSwitch, which has a nice no-nonsense realtime UI. Being able to make different profiles e.g. with different sample rate settings and select them with one click has made life with my Xonar D1 using shared mode output so much easier, too (the ASIO drivers suck and will hiccup when the CPU is loaded).

BTW, why is there a cable hooked up to the DI input of the iD22 (guitar?)? Why is nothing plugged into the regular combo LINE / MIC inputs that you should be using for recording? I thought you had unplugged the cables from the speakers and plugged 'em into there? For example, one measurement setup could look like this: Xonar STX line out --> Behringer HD400 --> iD22 MIC IN 1+2. (When using the line-in = TRS input, you would get a better representation of frequency response and distortion performance as input impedance is higher that way. The more sensitive mic-in would give a better idea of noise level though.)

 

[ScofieldKid]

I'd keep the Audient, and find better monitors... 2 cents...

 

[AnalogSteph]

I'd keep the Audient, and find better monitors... 2 cents...

It's a bit pearls before swine right now, true, but that's another matter altogether. Might as well be putting those 120 dB(A) ADCs to good use while the thing is around.

BTW, I'm a bit puzzled by the mic preamp specs on the iD22. I think Audient may be specifying SNR relative to +4 dBu out or something, that would match Amir's iD4 measurements very well (he got a dynamic range of 106 dB(A) near 0 dBFS, converters are spec'd with 114 dB(A) and a +12 dBu input level, so the mic preamp would seem to be achieving ~107 dB(A) ref. +12 dBu = ~99 dB(A) ref. +4 dBu, and spec is... 99 dB(A)). It may be prioritizing distortion over highest dynamic range; seems to be a rather traditional design anyway (opamp with discrete frontend). The -125 dBu EIN spec also has to be extremely conservative, given that Julian Krause got a very good -129/-130 dBu on the iD14.

Given that the Xonar STX line-level is a standard 2 Vrms (+8 dBu), it may not be possible to evaluate its full dynamic range... the iD22 mic preamp + A/D is likely to top out at 111-112 dB(A) or so, and the inserts that are providing a direct path to the ADCs would deliver 120 dB(A) relative to +18 dBu, and distortion measurement would likely be far more accurate like that but there would be no benefit to noise, as we wouldn't get beyond -10 dBFS in. That said, we're mainly looking for issues that are more or less glaringly obvious, not hiding in diminishing returns terrain.

One strength of the iD22 lies in being able to use the microphone preamps and the ADC standalone via balanced send/return jacks (max output = +22 dBu, max input = +18 dBu). This rather traditional studio gear approach and circuitry, however, may also be a disadvantage. Julian Krause found several dB better mic (preamp + A/D) input dynamic range on the little Audient EVO 4 compared to the iD14, which should be close to the iD22. For measurements, a better (higher dynamic range) mic preamp may be advisable. The ADC itself is about as good as all but a few out there, it just lacks the input level flexibility associated with studio-grade equipment that extends their total dynamic range (e.g. RME ADI-2 FS - +4 dB / +13 dBu / +19 dBu selectable; the ADI-2 Pro FS will accommodate +24 dBu as well, and traditional mastering converters would accept up to +28 dBu, though such extreme levels really aren't required any more).

It's surprising how hard getting substantially beyond 110 dB of input dynamic range can be. I guess this has been deemed sufficient for typical studio work - which, quite honestly, it is if you know anything about level management. (You can buy studio-grade ADCs with around 130 dB worth of dynamic range, which have their uses when interactive adjustment of gain is not an option yet a microphone's full dynamic range is to be captured. This performance level was actually reached at least 22 years ago.) Still, it would be nice if the mic preamp at least wasn't substantially limiting the ADC, preferably without having to shell out the 2 grand for an Earthworks 1022.

 

[SK123]

If you don't have a sub connected, disable FlexBass entirely. (Also turn off EQ and SVN.) As an alternative to the standard Asus control panel, you can try XonarSwitch, which has a nice no-nonsense realtime UI. Being able to make different profiles e.g. with different sample rate settings and select them with one click has made life with my Xonar D1 using shared mode output so much easier, too (the ASIO drivers suck and will hiccup when the CPU is loaded).

BTW, why is there a cable hooked up to the DI input of the iD22 (guitar?)? Why is nothing plugged into the regular combo LINE / MIC inputs that you should be using for recording? I thought you had unplugged the cables from the speakers and plugged 'em into there? For example, one measurement setup could look like this: Xonar STX line out --> Behringer HD400 --> iD22 MIC IN 1+2. (When using the line-in = TRS input, you would get a better representation of frequency response and distortion performance as input impedance is higher that way. The more sensitive mic-in would give a better idea of noise level though.)

I returned the unit yesterday :/.

I disabled the FlexBass, sorry was not sure what it was for. My speakers (long before getting ID22) were sounding strange and basic, so I was playing around how can I change the sound of my speakers to sound like before, and I discovered the 'Large' speakers option, and that restored back my speakers to previous sound. After disabling FlexBass, it's still sounding great and no change in sound quality. I also have XonarSwitch installed from the last time you helped me out . Didn't bother playing around with it too much. Just have the settings to 24 bit and 192 khz. SVN is disabled as well, cant locate the EQ. I have nothing engaged in the effects.

The DI is a guitar. I thought rest of the line-ins were for secondary equipments/mics. There was a video where in the ID22 test, the DI sounded better when playing guitar through it instead of the line-in (not sure if it was ID22 or another one of their interface).

When you said unplugging my speakers, that confused me like hell lol. Because I was trying to test the DAC. And plugging into the line-in, I thought they would go mute, speakers can only connect to lineouts. I truly apologize for not being able to follow some of the directions properly. I am entirely noob with electronics and audio stuff. Also, for connecting HD400 to ID22 MIC in 1+2 I would require TRS to TRS cables x2. I only have XLR to TRS.

Anyway, it's not a worry, I can always purchase back the ID22. I just didn't think of it's worth, just freshly starting on the guitars (1 mth in). The Asus soundcard line-in captures the guitar signal same good as the ID22 did. Didn't see any improvement in the speaker sound quality (only made the soundstage worse, just sounded brighter instead). So once I am in more advance stage and recording solos and covers, may be than I will consider the higher end recording stuff.

 

[SK123]

I'd keep the Audient, and find better monitors... 2 cents...

I currently love the 305s. My first pair of 'hifi' speakers that truly sounded like what high-end stuff would sound like. Use to hear audio through Senn HD6xx (650) and K712pro. Was mad that why didn't I discover these speakers before instead. Didn't even look back at my headphones after .

Hopefully sometime near future if money isn't an issue ( and have larger space to live) thinking about getting 708p speakers. Unless their's better option available.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I returned the unit yesterday :/.

I disabled the FlexBass, sorry was not sure what it was for. My speakers (long before getting ID22) were sounding strange and basic, so I was playing around how can I change the sound of my speakers to sound like before, and I discovered the 'Large' speakers option, and that restored back my speakers to previous sound. After disabling FlexBass, it's still sounding great and no change in sound quality. I also have XonarSwitch installed from the last time you helped me out . Didn't bother playing around with it too much. Just have the settings to 24 bit and 192 khz. SVN is disabled as well, cant locate the EQ. I have nothing engaged in the effects.

The DI is a guitar. I thought rest of the line-ins were for secondary equipments/mics. There was a video where in the ID22 test, the DI sounded better when playing guitar through it instead of the line-in (not sure if it was ID22 or another one of their interface).

When you said unplugging my speakers, that confused me like hell lol. Because I was trying to test the DAC. And plugging into the line-in, I thought they would go mute, speakers can only connect to lineouts. I truly apologize for not being able to follow some of the directions properly. I am entirely noob with electronics and audio stuff. Also, for connecting HD400 to ID22 MIC in 1+2 I would require TRS to TRS cables x2. I only have XLR to TRS.

Anyway, it's not a worry, I can always purchase back the ID22. I just didn't think of it's worth, just freshly starting on the guitars (1 mth in). The Asus soundcard line-in captures the guitar signal same good as the ID22 did. Didn't see any improvement in the speaker sound quality (only made the soundstage worse, just sounded brighter instead). So once I am in more advance stage and recording solos and covers, may be than I will consider the higher end recording stuff.

Based on the measurements @bennetng posted in post #11, it won't be possible to gain any audible improvement over your current sound card - its performance is already beyond the level at which humans can hear distortion or noise.

If you're looking for future upgrade options, I would consider loudspeakers, subs, and/or changes to room setup/treatment. These are the areas were significant potential performance gains lie.

It was a driver issue forced the card to operate in 16-bit and all results in the first post of the review are affected. Amir did a proper 24-bit test later on.

@amirm, perhaps it would be fairer to the manufcaturer to replace the measurements in the first post with the correct measurements? I just opened the review to check the card's performance and came away thinking it was a pretty terrible product, whereas it's actually perfectly good. (OTOH, I realise you're extremely busy ofc )