I follow another forum, new DAC release

[solderdude]

For electronics there can be a settling time (warm-up time).
This is also shown by Amir in some cases, even for digital gear (usually the X'tal oscillator)

Burn-in period for certain electronics is not weird (I do this often for fiber-optic components) but this is only to weed out the early failing components to a certain degree.
This is best done in a climate chamber at lower and higher temperatures than room temperature. Burn-in is a good term for this because of the high temperature to accelerate the time in which questionable quality components literally break. And some parts actually do. This is why some gear can fail rather soon after being used for the first time.
Although that can also be from incorrect usage or a design/test omission (L30 as an example).

Electrolytic capacitors can have a (rather short as in max a few seconds) forming effects when voltage is applied to it for the first time or when a device is switched on again after many years of not being switched on.

Tubes do age but usually not for years (unless one bought a really used 'pull' or a poor quality new one) so performance, once they are at their working temperature, can get less over time. Talking about years, not days/weeks unless the tube is faulty.

So for these reasons some people may think/believe electronics, and even cables , also need a burn-in period or should I say a break-in period for them to reach optimum quality. The 'electronics sound better' after X time (as in days or longer) is nonsensical and not supported by any evidence.

For mechanical and acoustical devices there can be some effects that can be measurable. One could question why everything is always 'improving' over time to certain folks.
Of course, people buying electronics and selling it because they don't like it after a while could be seen as proof of worsening over time as well.

Headphones... some effects can be real. Usually because of pads getting more compliant or shape better to head contours over time and create a better seal or ear-driver distance. But here too in most cases it is a matter of the brain getting used to a certain presentation. Those that regularly change headphones will undoubtedly have experienced that after a few minutes the 'weirdness' in sound after switching is gone and the headphone does not sound 'off' in the way it did when the switch occurred.

I am quite convinced that people get used to sound or become less 'in love' with their new purchase in general. For the same reason I believe 'long term listening tests' are flawed. Yet some people believe this is essential for gear to be evaluated. It has nothing to do with electronics changing but with the brain adjusting to a presentation of transducers.

 

[voodooless]

Another thing that bothers me about burn-in is, if the manufacturer recommends burn-in, why doesn't the manufacturer do it?.

Some do, most will ask a premium to do it. More money in the bank for zero effort. I wonder if those companies that offer the service actually do it. You sometimes see one of those burn-in jigs in factory tour videos. Those things may just be there for the show… who knows? It’s not as if you can test it…

 

[Mulder]

That is interesting, I'm not an EE by any means & do not ever want a tube amp for recorded music play back.
But as a musician I always use tube amps. I even had a custom bulit 40 watt tube amp built to 1950's spec Fender Bassman. Whats interesting to me is why I like that sound & feel I can only get it from an over driven tube amp ? I'm sure in this digital world there is way to get that tone from a SS amp or some digital processing amp but I never heard it. I never thought in terms of harmonic distortion being the draw of an amp. top.

Yes, some musicians can't imagine anything other than tube amps. But I have observed it is becoming increasingly common among professional musicians to use digital amp-modeling/speaker simulation and connect these directly to a PA system or active speakers. This especially applies to session musicians I think. As a result of the war in Ukraine, the supply of tubes has become critical. Electroharmonix, which carries almost all manufacturers with tubes, their factories are located in Russia. Perhaps this is the beginning of a wider transition to transistor amplifiers even among musicians.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Yes, some musicians can't imagine anything other than tube amps. But I have observed it is becoming increasingly common among professional musicians to use digital amp-modeling/speaker simulation and connect these directly to a PA system or active speakers. This especially applies to session musicians I think. As a result of the war in Ukraine, the supply of tubes has become critical. Electroharmonix, which carries almost all manufacturers with tubes, their factories are located in Russia. Perhaps this is the beginning of a wider transition to transistor amplifiers even among musicians.

Correct. Model Amps are widely available by now and come in all types of form, sizes and prices. From VST plug-ins for DAWs to 6.3mm plugs directly into the guitar to large speaker boxes.

And in absence of controlled listening tests the pro community has similar heated arguments about if one can detect the difference to the original. Personally I can’t, but I am not statistically relevant ;-) (nor a very good guitar player).

 

[delta76]

I follow another forum and they recently released a new DAC that just came out of beta testing. I am pulling my hair out in frustration. I already have one of their $8000 DACs (CDN) that is a few years old. What is getting under my skin is "burn in time" for solid state electronics. I have a fairly substantial background in electronics. I was a hobbyist since grade 6 and have a diploma in electronic engineering technology (3 years). My career veered off to computers and I have been a a network engineer for over 20 years. That being said, I have a fairly linear and logical line of thought.

Why do golden ear audiophiles think that solid state electronics require a break-in period? Since all of our audio equipment runs on DC, why do all the idiots proclaim that conditioning the AC make a difference to the sound stage or sustain or whatever jargon they use? All the Bryston user manuals for their amplifiers state that 'out of the wall' AC is all you need need because the amps have the proper filtration and conditioning.

Am I torturing myself or do any of you feel the same frustration (and contempt) I do?

audio industry is full of snake oils. the less you interact with "audiophile" forums, the better to your mental health.

 

[Mulder]

And in absence of controlled listening tests the pro community has similar heated arguments about if one can detect the difference to the original. Personally I can’t, but I am not statistically relevant ;-) (nor a very good guitar player).

I am convinced this is a form of expectation bias. Everybody says a tube amp is better, so when you hear one it sounds better. Among Jazz-guitarists however, solid-state amps have been used for a long time. They do not seem to have the same bias. Most guitarists use different effect boxes, like digital delays, compressors and overdrive pedals etc.. All these manipulate the sound, so how the heck are you supposed to know exactly what does what in your sound-signature. There is however another quality of older amps, and it is repairability. Modern solid state amps, if they break, there are often no way to repair them.

 

[fpitas]

That is interesting, I'm not an EE by any means & do not ever want a tube amp for recorded music play back.
But as a musician I always use tube amps. I even had a custom bulit 40 watt tube amp built to 1950's spec Fender Bassman. Whats interesting to me is why I like that sound & feel I can only get it from an over driven tube amp ? I'm sure in this digital world there is way to get that tone from a SS amp or some digital processing amp but I never heard it. I never thought in terms of harmonic distortion being the draw of an amp. top.

For guitar, tubes do offer unique distortion, especially if the power supply is designed to sag under heavy load. You may get 20 - 30% distortion under those conditions. It has nothing to do with high-fidelity uses. And yes, a friend got a DSP to make his (small, lightweight) guitar amp sound good

 

[Sokel]

For guitar, tubes do offer unique distortion, especially if the power supply is designed to sag under heavy load.

Yep.That's why you see tiny 10 watt amps with a mic in front of them then amplified 10000 times in big concerts.

 

[fpitas]

Yep.That's why you see tiny 10 watt amps with a mic in front of them then amplified 10000 times in big concerts.

Anyone who has had to lug around a high-power tube amp appreciates that approach.

 

[Rednaxela]

I keep reading

I follow another forum, new DAC please​

Sorry.

 

[thecheapseats]

...Why do golden ear audiophiles... ...why do...

stop trying to understand the phenomenon...

in a pretend world - if 'some' audiophiles had to make a living putting audio 'into' a system, (1) they'd never get anything done until their system was perfect (an impossible goal), and (2) after getting nothing done, they'd be living in a refrigerator box under a freeway overpass...

was that too harsh?...

 

[TonyJZX]

I think OP is underestimating his own experiences and qualifications

i too am a network eng. I too have a stem degree. I too have decades in the field.

Its clear that audio electronics *SHOULD* be no different to computer electronics or medical electronics or automotive electronics

you studied cisco and network engineering? tcp ip? routing technologies? then why is that so different to pcm and sp/dif?

i am reminded of a recently thread where someone asked if a streamer sending a digital signal to a dac would improve if they spent more money

and yet you know how network cables send signals so you should know in your heart there's some incontrovertible scientific principles

this place has a real hatred for AC conditioners and that sort of thing because the numbers and science and practicality isnt there

i also think there's some cross polination (such as it is) when it comes to analog electronics

I admit there's a lot of 'art' in turntables or phono preamps and reel to reel and where things arent 0/1 - and so I stay away from that

but for the digital sciences its pretty down pat... its 'settled science' which is a term many will hate

 

[Keith_W]

I would like to add my own story to burn-in.

Recently, I fixed a problem with my measurement setup that was preventing me from getting accurate measurements. I lost all my old convolution filters because of a catastrophic HDD failure. Because my system requires a digital crossover, loss of these filters means that I have to generate new ones to use the system, and being unable to perform accurate measurements meant that I had to do a lot of the final tuning by ear. I lived with the system sounding like this for a couple of months while I was trying to figure out the issue (turned out to be a cable).

After I regained the ability to measure, I eagerly performed new sweeps and made new filters. It sounded REALLY bright, as in there was WAYYYY too much treble, despite measurement of the result showing that it conformed fairly closely to my target curve. When I compared the old filter with the new, it turns out that I had tuned in treble that was -6dB off compared to the new target curve that was derived by microphone. I really did not like it.

However, over the course of a few days, it gradually became less treble heavy and now it sounds natural to me.

Conclusion: it took a few days for my new filters to burn-in. Oh wait, maybe it took a few days for my brain to adapt to the sound

 

[notsodeadlizard]

If you think you've been saved, you think wrong because here you may be advised to warm up the topping E30 II for three days, this is expected to improve sound.
There will be no salvation for you.

And if I'm being serious, I can say this: after buying a new expensive audio device, it would be very logical to give it a "break-in" for a couple of days, while the law on consumer rights is in effect.
In electronics, if something fails, it fails right out of the box, even though it has been extensively tested in the manufacturing process.
This will not improve the sound or worsen it, but sometimes it can help save nerves and money.
At the same time, you will have the opportunity to "listen" to what you bought. It may very well be that you will not like it, no one told you that you should like it, the declared technical parameters are valid for a number of specific conditions that are not always announced and are not always fulfilled in reality.

Quality powering is a different story.
There is no magic here, but really high-quality powering has never harmed anything. I don't know about "soundstage", but a "sparking" socket and a bad power cable are very bad anyway.
Something highly sensitive (such as the preamp of your turntable with an MC head) is best powered by batteries, for example. Simply because it is better in every way.
Mains voltage filters are a different story. They are most likely useless for your quality transformer powered amplifier. But they will not be superfluous for something with switching power (now it's fashionable).
Some special miraculous properties are not required from these filters, they can be ordinary mains filters. When your fridge compressor turns on, these filters will do their job.

Well, everything else is more about the fact that people entertain themselves as best they can and fully have the right to do so.
After all, audiophilia is not pedophilia and is generally a completely harmless "-philia"

 

[DSJR]

As regards burn-in/running in and so on - I think you all feel that audiophool-grade gear is properly designed and stable?


In later years selling CD players, I used to recommend to new purchasers to find discs with the longest CD running time they had in their collection and run the player overnight on repeat... Nothing whatever to do with sound quality perceived or otherwise, but to bed in the mechanism as some machines (Arcams with Sony mechs - cough ) used to fail in the first few hours. If they survived that, they'd run for decades after...

 

[fpitas]

stop trying to understand the phenomenon...

in a pretend world - if 'some' audiophiles had to make a living putting audio 'into' a system, (1) they'd never get anything done until their system was perfect (an impossible goal), and (2) after getting nothing done, they'd be living in a refrigerator box under a freeway overpass...

was that too harsh?...

 

[Zapper]

I follow another forum and they recently released a new DAC that just came out of beta testing. I am pulling my hair out in frustration. I already have one of their $8000 DACs (CDN) that is a few years old.

I understand your frustration, but ... someone who spends $8000 on a DAC must be sipping the same Kool Aid.

 

[muslhead]

NASA doesn't burn in their space ships before launching, neither does the military do burn in time on the fighter jets or nuclear submarines because solid state electronics don't work that way. Even medical grade headphones don't get burned in before getting sent to a doctor or hospital. The guy who imagines it is the crazy one, not you.

while they may or may not burnin their space ships, they definitely have their electronics burned in.
All space products (and virtually all military) products require burnin. Its a part of their spec.
I had 20 years in the electronics industry with the military and space depts from the US requiring this. The burn in was to filter out infant mortality

 

[thecheapseats]

View attachment 278781

exactly...

 

[fpitas]

exactly...

I avoided all that by making my own speakers. Sure, now I'll play with crossovers and EQ for the next hundred years. But it's free!