Hypex nCore vs Class A amps

[Audio89]

Audio89, there is a whole site that's specifically dedicated to people who think like this [speaker cables sound different, etc.] and, like you, don't have any formal knowledge of electronics but ''know what they hear'' and don't have to take any guff from book-learnin' engineers with their Ohm's Law and their fancy graphs which can be tough understand sometimes even by important editors in the field [especially figuring out the inverse of 10 to the -6].

I am pleasantly surprised at your apparent eagerness to learn and engage on this forum. But do know that, if/when you reach the point where you say to yourself, ''I tried but everyone here is just so mean, and heck, it's just a hobby,'' that there is a place filled with like-minded folk who will welcome you.

I would provide the URL of said site, but I am new to ASR and I don't want to run afoul of any policies. Also, as they used to say on The Prisoner, that would be telling.

book-leanin engineers hahaha, thanks for the reply, I appreciate your input.

 

[Audio89]

You know, a lot of people talk about "dangerous" interfaces between materials. Now look inside any amplifier or DAC. Maybe even try to do some DIY. There are DOZENS of soldered connections. ON THE SIGNAL PATH. And I am supposed to believe that removing ONE such connection and replacing it with a properly welded (!!!) or cold welded (!!!) one, maybe not even on the signal path but on the power cord (!!!!!) should make a significant difference?

Just starting to DIY stuff made me realise how much of audiophile beliefs are fluff.

You are right, and I’m keeping an open mind to remove audiophile fluff.

 

[scott wurcer]

Also, as they used to say on The Prisoner, that would be telling.

My sig line on another forum was, "Why do you care?", "You'll never know". In general the resistance to actually put "I know what I hear" to a blind test is amazingly strong and a constant frustration, once the wife in the kitchen and "like day and night " come out it's over.

 

[SIY]

@Audio89 you might find this article helpful.

 

[Audio89]

@Audio89 you might find this article helpful.

Thank you SIY, I’m reading it now.

 

[RayDunzl]

My evidence is my ears

Well, welcome to ASR.

I believe what I hear except when I don't.

I believe my eyes, too, except when I don't.

(I get to post my very favorite optical illusion with that lead-in)


What do I see? Two squares (ok, they aren't square on the screen) marked A and B, that are different shades of gray.

It's entirely obvious. Just look!

The problem is that the squares are the same color. (The letters A and B are not, but that isn't particularly material to the illusion).

A little no-trickery cut and paste from the image above:

It's my favorite, because it is so obvious the squares are not the same color (though they are)

And...

Even when the illusion is known, you still can't not see it. No matter how long I stare at it, the squares look different.

What's the takeaway?

My sensors are not infallible. I can be fooled.

Nor, I suppose, are those belonging to anyone else.


---

http://persci.mit.edu/gallery/checkershadow/description

"As with many so-called illusions, this effect really demonstrates the success rather than the failure of the visual system. The visual system is not very good at being a physical light meter, but that is not its purpose. The important task is to break the image information down into meaningful components, and thereby perceive the nature of the objects in view."

 

[Bamyasi]

"As with many so-called illusions, this effect really demonstrates the success rather than the failure of the visual system. The visual system is not very good at being a physical light meter, but that is not its purpose. The important task is to break the image information down into meaningful components, and thereby perceive the nature of the objects in view."

Cool, never seen this particular one before.

 

[dkinric]

Audio89, there is a whole site that's specifically dedicated to people who think like this [speaker cables sound different, etc.] and, like you, don't have any formal knowledge of electronics but ''know what they hear'' and don't have to take any guff from book-learnin' engineers with their Ohm's Law and their fancy graphs which can be tough understand sometimes even by important editors in the field [especially figuring out the inverse of 10 to the -6].

I am pleasantly surprised at your apparent eagerness to learn and engage on this forum. But do know that, if/when you reach the point where you say to yourself, ''I tried but everyone here is just so mean, and heck, it's just a hobby,'' that there is a place filled with like-minded folk who will welcome you.

I would provide the URL of said site, but I am new to ASR and I don't want to run afoul of any policies. Also, as they used to say on The Prisoner, that would be telling.

@teched58 I see you slipped this in here. I'm curious, is this your first time posting on ASR, or just first time under this name?
Since you bring it up, I'm curious which site you are referring to? Is there a site full of malcontent former ASR posters that have fled because "those people are just too mean over there" and "we know what we hear, dammit"? (If so, that's fine, to each his own, but it would be funny).

 

[Audio89]

Well, welcome to ASR.

I believe what I hear except when I don't.

I believe my eyes, too, except when I don't.

(I get to post my very favorite optical illusion with that lead-in)


What do I see? Two squares (ok, they aren't square on the screen) that are different shades of gray.

It's entirely obvious. Just look!

View attachment 58775









The problem is that the squares are the same color. (The letters A and B are not, but that isn't particularly material to the illusion).

A little no-trickery cut and paste from the image above:

View attachment 58776

It's my favorite, because it is so obvious the squares are not the same color (though they are)

And...

Even when the illusion is known, you still can't not see it. No matter how long I stare at it, the squares look different.

What's the takeaway?

My sensors are not infallible. I can be fooled.

Nor, I suppose, are those belonging to anyone else.


---

http://persci.mit.edu/gallery/checkershadow/description

"As with many so-called illusions, this effect really demonstrates the success rather than the failure of the visual system. The visual system is not very good at being a physical light meter, but that is not its purpose. The important task is to break the image information down into meaningful components, and thereby perceive the nature of the objects in view."

Definitely interesting, thanks!

 

[Xulonn]

I usually believe half of what I read until proven otherwise, the main reason I like audioquest is the cold weld process, they don’t use solder.

At least I would agree that a cold solder joint is worse than a cold weld joint!

I hope you stick around

Is that like hoping that someone in front of you won't break the piñata so you can?

 

[Mnyb]

I think the topic is slightly wrong ? Should it not be conventional amp vs class D not just class A ?

Class D amps are usually clever with thier dynamic power a true class A amp the dynamic power and thier continues power are very similar how many can afford a 450 watt class A amp that also works down to 1 ohm and still operate in class A that’s what we should compare with.
Not even Krell build them , they have some other clever bias schemes these days.

 

[teched58]

@teched58 I see you slipped this in here. I'm curious, is this your first time posting on ASR, or just first time under this name?
Since you bring it up, I'm curious which site you are referring to? Is there a site full of malcontent former ASR posters that have fled because "those people are just too mean over there" and "we know what we hear, dammit"? (If so, that's fine, to each his own, but it would be funny).

Hi dkrinic-

You misunderstand me; no foul, I was unclear. I meant that science-based people are fleeing FROM AS and coming TO ASR.

In answer to your question, yes, this is my first time posting. It's my true first; I have not posted under any other names.

 

[Jake's Dad]

My evidence is my ears, you know it’s practically impossible to measure the differences we hear with test equipment. What’s your evidence that they don’t sound different mr engineer???

 

[dkinric]

Hi dkrinic-

You misunderstand me; no foul, I was unclear. I meant that science-based people are fleeing FROM AS and coming TO ASR.

In answer to your question, yes, this is my first time posting. It's my true first; I have not posted under any other names.

Ah, Audiophilestyle, gotcha. Thank you for the reply, and welcome to ASR!

 

[mocenigo]

Credit to the lovely and talented @RayDunzl

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-shoutometer.2555/#post-73214

View attachment 58768

Ok, I stand corrected. If course this is an obvious example, so I stand not only corrected, but having made the figure of a dummy I should have phrased my question differently, something like "What's the evidence that this $28,000 piece of lab grade equipment can (still) measure any electrical property that can have a hearing impact also until it is far, far below the threshold of hearing?" BUT of course this would have been beyond what @dkinric said.

 

[stunta]

Recently replaced all amplifiers with new nCore units. Only drawback is I miss the satisfaction of listening to something I designed myself. But I can live very well with that, because:

- Compared to the class-A, distortion at low level is similar or lower, harmonic distribution less perfect, but since level is far below threshold of hearing, that does not matter. At higher power levels the new ones simply destroy the exotic.
- Lower noise, need to put my head inside the horn to hear anything at all in a quiet room.
- Can drive any load with ease, just like the class-A. But..
- 4 times smaller size, 10x power, 90% reduction in power consumption and heat. How can you not love that.

They are sonically transparent. In fact, if I was to build those for sale, I would sell them with sound quality guarantee - if you can hear a difference between input and output, return it and get a full refund.

I could design an AB circuit with similar performance, it would be 6x the size, use 4x to 8x power, output transistors alone would cost more than the complete nCore module with power supply.

Built 2 types - the Buurion and the slightly larger Guurion. I like the design. Real wood, you can see the cooling and amplifier boards, takes up very little space due to the narrow width.

Problem solved. Case closed.

View attachment 58697

I wonder if it has something to do with me being a software engineer, but when I see DIY hardware builds like this, I am just in awe and wish I could have built it. I did build the nCore monoblocks from the kit and what was supposed to be easy, I managed to make very challenging.

Nice work. They even look powerful.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

I wonder if it has something to do with me being a software engineer, but when I see DIY hardware builds like this, I am just in awe and wish I could have built it. I did build the nCore monoblocks from the kit and what was supposed to be easy, I managed to make very challenging.

Nice work. They even look powerful.

The mechanical construction on those are a bit more complex than the typical amplifier, not sure if it would be fair to suggest anyone could build this as a diy project, both woodworking and machining required with appropriate tools. They were originally designed to be commercially available products, then I changed my mind and decided to just build some for in-house use only.

 

[stoneeh]

The only Hypex product I've tested so far is the PSC2.700d. I've heard plenty of other Class D amps like Lab Gruppen FP or IPD series, Nexo NxAmp, Powersofts, Synq, Crown..
Apart from that, many Class AB and H PA amps, and lots of Class AB HiFi amps from for example Denon, Parasound, Uher, Sony, ...

Conclusions:

- I've heard clear, reproduceable, indistinguishable, defineable differences between every single amp, independent of volume
- the best Class AB amps I've heard are better than the best Class D amps I've heard
- the worst Class D amps reproduce music much worse than the worst Class AB amps I've heard
- the Lab Gruppens are close, but I've not yet gotten to know any Class D amp that I would describe as sounding faultless, reproducing music / instruments / voices like they sound in reality

No bias - I'd actually love to have the same reproduction quality I've always enjoyed in a smaller, lighter, cooler, more efficient package. So far no luck though. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

 

[SIY]

No bias -

And also no basic controls.

 

[VintageFlanker]

No bias

Since all your listening comparaisons seem sighted, I'm afraid there is.

Once you're probably expecting these results:

I've not yet gotten to know any Class D amp that I would describe as sounding faultless, reproducing music / instruments / voices like they sound in reality