How Much is Undoubtedly Too Much?

[Wolf11Man]

The many commercial home theater solutions, sold to the average Joe, have given multi channel a bad name.
The combination of two decend speakers with a physicaly wrong (horizontal) cheap center, even worse back surrounds and some underwelming subwoofer are a torture for any audiophile.
If you start with three identical front speakers, a decend sub and surround speaker of matching sound character and quality, things get much better. The downside is the price range and the care needed to install them.

 

[goat76]

My two cents on the multichannel issue.
Do you know what reproduces two cellos better than a multichannel system? Two cellos.
So is the future of hifi to have a myriad of musical instruments that play on command at home? I doubt it.
The problem with multichannel is that it would struggle terribly to spread enough to make it convenient to publish multichannel music by default, how many people would have the space, money and patience or interest to install a multichannel system at home? Many people have great difficulty finding the space and a position at least decent for two small bookshelf speakers.
Multichannel music could also be qualitatively better than stereo, I have no doubt about it, but I don't think it will ever go much beyond the niche, due to the objective difficulty of spreading such a complex, expensive, space-demanding and compromise-intensive system in a normal home.

You are right about how most people in the world would not have the space, the money, the patience, or the interest to install a multichannel system at home, but that is not the decisive factor if multichannel music will be widespread or not. What will decide the future of Atmos for music is how it is received by the headphone-listening world which is the large consumer market for music listening nowadays, and at this point, it seems like many consumers like what they hear with immersive audio for headphones. As long as this trend is going on and if it's here to stay, all the audio nerds who are prepared to install multiple speakers in their homes will be able to take part in all that, no matter how "niche" it is with such audio systems in regular homes. The popularity of Atmos for headphone listening is like a "Trojan horse" for the listeners of multi-speaker systems.

 

[rank]

Measure your hearing first, then go listen to speakers in a store and don't hesitate to increase the volume to see how far you can go.
I assume that you live in a house. In an apartment it won't do (for me it's the difference between the city and the countryside where I can push the volume).
Most often, bookshelves are more than enough, preferably on stands. Although I was pleasantly surprised by several floorstanding speakers at $250 per pair from various brands (Eltax, Fenton, Highland) well distributed in the Western world. The frequencies from 30 to 60 will suffer but their absence is largely tolerable.
Concerning electronics, any integrated amplifier will unfortunately do as well or even better than any prestigious high end. Unless you really need 500 W per channel (but then there is the sound system and my EMB amp paid $200...) I would rather recommend a home cinema system in 2024 to enjoy the multichannel sound which is a real plus, at least on the SACD and DVDA/BRA that I have listened to.
There, the Denon are apparently the least bad for the moment; Tonewinner seems better on specs but nothing says that the brand will last (the Oppo experience has put off more than one buyer) and they only make separate amp-preamps which are quite expensive I find.
I have a $150 Sony BR that plays SACDs (an interesting format if you like classical music, for multichannel only).

 

[Sal1950]

The problem with multichannel is that it would struggle terribly to spread enough to make it convenient to publish multichannel music by default, how many people would have the space, money and patience or interest to install a multichannel system at home? Many people have great difficulty finding the space and a position at least decent for two small bookshelf speakers.
Multichannel music could also be qualitatively better than stereo, I have no doubt about it, but I don't think it will ever go much beyond the niche, due to the objective difficulty of spreading such a complex, expensive, space-demanding and compromise-intensive system in a normal home.

You are right about how most people in the world would not have the space, the money, the patience, or the interest to install a multichannel system at home, but that is not the decisive factor if multichannel music will be widespread or not. What will decide the future of Atmos for music is how it is received by the headphone-listening world which is the large consumer market for music listening nowadays, and at this point, it seems like many consumers like what they hear with immersive audio for headphones. As long as this trend is going on and if it's here to stay, all the audio nerds who are prepared to install multiple speakers in their homes will be able to take part in all that, no matter how "niche" it is with such audio systems in regular homes. The popularity of Atmos for headphone listening is like a "Trojan horse" for the listeners of multi-speaker systems.

All very true, but the same can be said of stereo today.
Back in the 70-80s, everyone had a receiver and a pair of speakers in their home capable of a nice stereo playback.
No longer, it's sadly only the tiny niche of the folks like us that care about this stuff, 2 or 16 channels.
Joe Sixpack has a little Sonos or Soundbar with some weird AI build in, to create phasey sounding music all around the room that has
no relation to what the artists & engineers tried to convey. Stereo is just a word to them they don't even understand the reasoning for.
The only reason much of interest lives today is the Home Theater group which gained a big boost during COVID times.

OTOH, todays leading recording engineers like Clearwater, Wilson, Parsons, Taylor, so many more, along with the artists
they record, are hugely into and excited about the creative options open to them for recording in 5.1 and Atmos. So along with
straight stereo, I believe multich will continue to expand and grow, it being irrelevant that mostly no one cares.
For those not paying attention, the multich market has exploded over the decade, at a rate that I haven't been able to afford the
flood of music I would have liked to own. Thankfully streaming has partly filled the gap, unfortunately in a mostly lossy manner, at least for now.

 

[mhardy6647]

Bozak speakers

Ahem. That was my third choice

 

[Old_School_Brad]

For under $2,000, you could assemble a HiFi system with (almost) full-range sound capable of truly impressive performance. This setup would include full-range speakers, streaming capability, basic room correction, amplification and remote control.

On the used market.

 

[Waxx]

For under $2,000, you could assemble a HiFi system with (almost) full-range sound capable of truly impressive performance. This setup would include full-range speakers, streaming capability, basic room correction, amplification and remote control.

On the used market.

That is true, even new. But the max volume will be low, and it will only be fit to fill a relative small space. That is why it's hard to put a hard number to a max price for SOTA equipment, it all depends on the use, and in some cases like i mentioned above it will still cost a fortune to have the right setup. But those are in general rare cases. Most people will have a system that is SOTA for their space with a few grands. For 95% of the people or more, 10K is way more than they need to have such a system that fits the space they use to listen music.

And most people don't really care. This site is where the freaks gather. The general public is perfectly happy with a for us crappy system, because it is good enough to fit their needs. A perfect example is my brother, who is very wealthy. He does not care and is perfectly happy with his old sonos system that i find crap. He just needs something that plays music in his whole house on background level that he can operate from his phone and fits his fancy home. So sonos and Visaton in wall speakers and a sonos system with spotify is all he needs. He has an quiet good technics stereo system from the late 90's, but it's disconnected and gathers dust in his attic as it does not fit his house anymore...

 

[WillBrink]

Hey!
So this is a very naive question I suppose. I couldn't find any thread that would gather answers to that question so I tried that thread. Sorry if it's uninteresting and feel free, of course, to delete it if it's been answered before.

Just like for many people I suppose, hanging out here really changed my perspective on the industry and the cost of things. So I can't help but ask this even though it's overly simplistic.

I had difficulties naming the thread, it might be a little cryptic, but I'm wondering:

What is the maximum budget one should have if they only care about audio quality? From what amount can you say: "yeah, this person is paying for more than just audio quality, they're paying for status, pride of ownership, UI/UX, symbols, beliefs, whatever"

Let's say: without room treatment. I'm talking purely electronics and speakers. No need to count the cables, since it'll be 30 bucks.
And let's picture a normal size room 15sqm - 25 sqm.

I guess another way of saying it is: how cheap is the cheapest state of the art system one can aspire to?

State of the art is in the mouth of the beholder and all that. My state of the art will not be yours, and so forth. There's no real way to answer it.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

That is true, even new. But the max volume will be low, and it will only be fit to fill a relative small space. That is why it's hard to put a hard number to a max price for SOTA equipment, it all depends on the use, and in some cases like i mentioned above it will still cost a fortune to have the right setup. But those are in general rare cases. Most people will have a system that is SOTA for their space with a few grands. For 95% of the people or more, 10K is way more than they need to have such a system that fits the space they use to listen music.

And most people don't really care. This site is where the freaks gather. The general public is perfectly happy with a for us crappy system, because it is good enough to fit their needs. A perfect example is my brother, who is very wealthy. He does not care and is perfectly happy with his old sonos system that i find crap. He just needs something that plays music in his whole house on background level that he can operate from his phone and fits his fancy home. So sonos and Visaton in wall speakers and a sonos system with spotify is all he needs. He has an quiet good technics stereo system from the late 90's, but it's disconnected and gathers dust in his attic as it does not fit his house anymore...

Oh no, max volume will be sufficient for larger rooms..

• Cerwin Vega CLS or XLS 215 (both actually measure well, don’t come for me!)
• Infinity Kappa models: 90, 100, or the Kappa 8 and 9, including the newer .1 and .2 versions
• Wiim Pro Plus (for streaming, Bluetooth volume control, basic room correction)
• Amplifiers: Crown XLi or XLS, Yamaha Pxxxx, QSC GX line

Affordable, powerful, clean, and versatile setup.

*Aesthetics and WAF (wife acceptance factor) not considered in the above.

 

[Snarfie]

That is true, even new. But the max volume will be low, and it will only be fit to fill a relative small space. That is why it's hard to put a hard number to a max price for SOTA equipment, it all depends on the use, and in some cases like i mentioned above it will still cost a fortune to have the right setup. But those are in general rare cases. Most people will have a system that is SOTA for their space with a few grands. For 95% of the people or more, 10K is way more than they need to have such a system that fits the space they use to listen music.

And most people don't really care. This site is where the freaks gather. The general public is perfectly happy with a for us crappy system, because it is good enough to fit their needs. A perfect example is my brother, who is very wealthy. He does not care and is perfectly happy with his old sonos system that i find crap. He just needs something that plays music in his whole house on background level that he can operate from his phone and fits his fancy home. So sonos and Visaton in wall speakers and a sonos system with spotify is all he needs. He has an quiet good technics stereo system from the late 90's, but it's disconnected and gathers dust in his attic as it does not fit his house anymore...

Rare case here i suppose:

Vandersteen model 1. 225,-
NAD C370 + upgrade cost 250,-
Lenovo laptop X230. 200,-
Topping D10 (new) . 80,-
Measuring mic. 40,-
DSP Mathaudio room EQ. 100,- (system wide)
Cables, room treathment 100,-

Total. . 995-

Sound second to none in a horrible acoustic mancave thanx to DSP an a bit (self made) room treatment. If you leave out the laptop an the system wide DSP (Mathaudio is for free in combination with Foobar2000) we are talking about 695,- strictly audio gear an some room treatment.
I don't count the IMF Compact II monitors (with the marvelous original KEF T27 tweeter ) just 70,- euro.
.
Regarding volume above NAD C370 has a IHF dynamic power (8, 4, 2 ohms): 210W, 340W, 450W. Frequency response: 20Hz-20kHz, ±0.3dB.

NAD C370 integrated amplifier Specifications

Sidebar 1: Specifications Description: Remote-controlled integrated amplifier with seven line-level inputs (including two tape in/record out); preamp out/main in, and a second preamp out with up to 12dB attenuation; NAD Link; Soft Clipping and Bridging switches. Output power: 120Wpc (20.8dBW)...

www.stereophile.com

 

[Robin L]

That is true, even new. But the max volume will be low, and it will only be fit to fill a relative small space. That is why it's hard to put a hard number to a max price for SOTA equipment, it all depends on the use, and in some cases like i mentioned above it will still cost a fortune to have the right setup. But those are in general rare cases. Most people will have a system that is SOTA for their space with a few grands. For 95% of the people or more, 10K is way more than they need to have such a system that fits the space they use to listen music.

And most people don't really care. This site is where the freaks gather. The general public is perfectly happy with a for us crappy system, because it is good enough to fit their needs. A perfect example is my brother, who is very wealthy. He does not care and is perfectly happy with his old sonos system that i find crap. He just needs something that plays music in his whole house on background level that he can operate from his phone and fits his fancy home. So sonos and Visaton in wall speakers and a sonos system with spotify is all he needs. He has an quiet good technics stereo system from the late 90's, but it's disconnected and gathers dust in his attic as it does not fit his house anymore...

SOTA is SOTA. That is to say, the topmost level of audio reproduction would naturally include a large enough and acoustically correct environment to situate the gear, requisite levels of distortion and maximum SPLs, and plausible stereo (or surround) imaging. One reason I would differentiate Pop/Rock playback from Classical playback would be that there are surround mixes with Pop/Rock that spread the sounds from all directions, with Classical productions being capable of the illusion of a realistic presentation if the room acoustics are correct. In either case, SOTA means SOTA. It really does mean as far as one can push it. One can't do that in a small room. I'm perfectly happy with 2-channel near-field listening in my 10' x 12' x 8' room, but there's no way I could have a true SOTA system in that room. For most of us Wilson Audio WAMM Master Chronosonic is downright absurd. At the same time, there are those who own these behemoths and find their sound the ultimate in realism. Whatever SOTA might really be, it will undoubtedly be too much for most of us by a very wide margin.

 

[Sal1950]

State of the art is in the mouth of the beholder and all that. My state of the art will not be yours, and so forth. There's no real way to answer it.

Not really, you're talking about preference.
SOTA audio (close to totally transparent) is easily measured and relatively inexpensive to obtain from the CD to the speaker terminals.
TOTL speakers is the only place where perferences will rule since none are perfect.
But once again they can be measured and put on a scale with the one's that could be considered SOTA throw into relatively small pile.
A lot of the decision to be separated by room size and listening SPL desired.

Whatever SOTA might really be, it will undoubtedly be too much for most of us by a very wide margin.

Robin, I would only disagree with you on this point.
SOTA to me means being able to reflect the sound (be transparent) to the source at as high a level as current tech allows.
I believe it is achievable in a 10x12x8 room with maybe a very high quality stand mount and good 12" sub.
Just as well as a Wilson Audio WAMM Master Chronosonic in a room 10x that size.
SPL > Cubic Ft is the expensive part to master, Transparent to the source (SOTA) not so much today. LOL

 

[Waxx]

I don't count wilson as SOTA, they measure not well. JBL 4367 is sota (proven by measurments like those done by Erin) and can go loud. Those terrible looking Cerwin Vega's mentioned above come close for a fraction of the price and there are more speakers like that, but most are older (certain older B&W models, Klein & Hummel O500, ...).

And if you add dsp eq, some speakers of Danley Labs, Meyer Sound and Function One also can be SOTA, but those are pro audio speakers that count on dsp to be that and less usefull as hifi speakers because of the dispertion than the big JBL's. There is not a lack of high power SOTA speakers, they are just not in fashion with the hifi public, certainly not with those who fancy snake oil. And they are not that cheap neighter (but not "wilson sound" espensive neighter).

And there are many diy designs (sometimes free to use, sometimes for a fee for the plan) that are as neutral as the big JBL's. These type of speakers are not so commercial interesting that speaker brands design them. But diy'ers are not bound to those commercial considerations so ...

 

[kemmler3D]

A lot of the decision to be separated by room size and listening SPL desired.

Agree, I think SOTA can be defined (and reached) at most room sizes with a reasonable budget. The only subjective aspect is your required SPL at listening position. If you don't need more than (say) 100dB peaks I think SOTA fidelity is a 4-figure proposition for most rooms and 5 figures for all but the largest spaces.

If you want 120dB peaks, then you may need to shell out quite a bit more or make some really objectionable tradeoffs.

 

[Multicore]

I think the threshold between ok and undoubtedly too much may be subjective.

 

[Robin L]

Robin, I would only disagree with you on this point.
SOTA to me means being able to reflect the sound (be transparent) to the source at as high a level as current tech allows.
I believe it is achievable in a 10x12x8 room with maybe a very high quality stand mount and good 12" sub.
Just as well as a Wilson Audio WAMM Master Chronosonic in a room 10x that size.
SPL > Cubic Ft is the expensive part to master, Transparent to the source (SOTA) not so much today. LOL

A recording engineer/producer I worked with had his house built from the ground up with a room designed for postproduction. High arched ceilings, fairly large (like 20' x 16 x 14') with a closet for HDDs so their noise didn't enter the studio. This was back in the 1990s when classical productions were almost entirely recorded 16/44.1 (or 48) and hard disc storage was the only option for editing (not counting some companies fixed head digital recorders that allowed for editing with razor blade and adhesive tape). Again, if we're really talking about state of the art, it's not just about the gear, it's also about the room. And if we're really talking about state of the art it's going to cost a lot of money. The guy won a couple of Grammys, FWIW.

 

[Snarfie]

A recording engineer/producer I worked with had his house built from the ground up with a room designed for postproduction. High arched ceilings, fairly large (like 20' x 16 x 14') with a closet for HDDs so their noise didn't enter the studio. This was back in the 1990s when classical productions were almost entirely recorded 16/44.1 (or 48) and hard disc storage was the only option for editing (not counting some companies fixed head digital recorders that allowed for editing with razor blade and adhesive tape). Again, if we're really talking about state of the art, it's not just about the gear, it's also about the room. And if we're really talking about state of the art it's going to cost a lot of money. The guy won a couple of Grammys, FWIW.

The investment ratio for a proffesional controll room is around 30-70% 30% gear 70% room treatment. An serious proffesional controll room will cost (i guess) around 1 mln. Compare thar ratio with the average living/listening room/gear of the average customer.

 

[Sal1950]

The investment ration for a proffesional controll room is around 30-70% 30% gear 70% room treatment. An serious controll room will i guess around 1 mln.

That seems a bit high but I guess it all depends on how much is being included. As audiophiles we're not including things like the studio space
and all the rest. Here's a SOTA mixing room that could double as a fantastic listening space. Just add a couch.

 

[Mart68]

That is true, even new. But the max volume will be low, and it will only be fit to fill a relative small space.

Not at all. I put a system together for a friend, the room is about 20' by 40'.

CD, TT (for his wife), amp and speakers, all top brands, total cost just over £300

The speakers are from the late 1970s but came with brand new crossovers. Being KEF they measure well and with 8'' main driver and large racetrack ABR they easily fill the room. If he really wanted full range he could add 2 subs and DSP for less than a grand.

Close enough to SOTA 2 channel that only someone very fussy would care. The used market is full of abundance if you pick the kit no-one wants because they are told on forums or in the mags that it's now 'Well off the pace.'

 

[Theta]

Show me a single instance of a very high quality build. They really are just modules in boxes with a bare minimum of money spent on front panel design, operational ease or superb ergonomics, controls and features. Two sets of switched speakers? Good luck. You'd need to step up to maybe a NAD class D to get some of that.

Most Class Ds sold at affordable prices are one step above DIY.

Show me some affordable Class Ds in a box with level controls/gain controls, power switches and input options, along with status indicators on the front panels. Most are on the back panels, using cheap toggles, PCB mounted trimpots, or worse, even DIP switches. Some are so poverty-pack they put the options switches on the base panel.

If I have to reach around the back to turn on or off a piece of HiFi- it's junk to me.

Inconvenient for sure, but there are exceptions. I am using a Luxman M12 for mid range, not exactly junk, pretty dam good in fact.