How low can you hear?

[Curvature]

You can sense down to 0Hz (atmospheric pressure change), but the mechanism is not strictly auditory and the SPL thresholds are well over 100dB.

 

[tmtomh]

IMO, Led Zeppelin intentionally made their albums sound edgy and distorted. That was the sound that they thought suited the music artistically. It wasn't limitations of recording equipment, as many other great sounding albums were made during those years.

Maybe. But I find most Zeppelin albums sound very good overall - and IMHO the production on those albums was kind of pathbreaking, really defining the 70s sounds in many ways in contrast to the 60s sound.

But yes, most Zeppelin albums have less deep bass than folks might think from the band's musical reputation.

In fact, to @Yorkshire Mouth 's original question, I can say this: when I play Zeppelin it generally sounds pretty solid in the bass region. However, if I play more modern music with electronic bass (and usually a fair amount of compression), and then put on Zeppelin IV or Physical Graffiti or In Through the Out Door, then Zeppelin definitely sounds "bass-lite," as you say. So I can definitely hear a lack of low bass musically - but like a lot of subjective listening we do, it's most easily perceived in a relative or comparative way than a direct way, and it's somewhat dependent on what I've just been listening to, or not listening to, beforehand. (And bringing up most Zeppelin tracks in Audacity will show that the bass usually peaks around 50Hz and there's not a lot of energy below that).

Oh, and BTW, the modern music with electronic bass and/or compression doesn't have to be synth music or something really heavy on the low end like Massive Attack. A sparser production like Beck's Morning Phase or Lana Del Rey's NFR will produce the same effect if I listen to it first and then put on some Zeppelin.

Finally, from experience I can confidently say that I really enjoy having a good amount of energy from my speakers down to about 35Hz. Of course if they go lower that's great, but honestly I really don't give a fig about 20Hz - I find those last few Hz of the deepest bass make very little difference in my musical enjoyment.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Some excellent contributions here, many thanks.

I’m not going to quote-reply every one, but I can’t really stick my comments all in just one big reply, so maybe 2 or 3.

What I’ll say immediately, is that some people here are mind readers when they quote Led Zep. Every year (sometimes 2 or 3 times a year) we go on holiday, and I make a 20 track playlist to share across the family. I compile it and ‘road test’ it first for a few weeks, tweaking until I think it’s right. Two recent playlists have included Led Zep tracks, and they’re the least bass-y of any of the tracks on their respective playlists.

No question, they’re really lacking in bass.

Regarding vinyl, I know of one story. The bass was very light on early Beatles LPs and singles. When PMc complained he was told the needle would jump if there was too much bass. Anyway, it got to 1966 and Paperback Writer/Rain was pegged for release at the end of the month. Brian Wilson flew to England with an advance copy of Pet Sounds, with much deeper bass than The Beatles had managed. PMc took it to the powers that be to insist it was proof that vinyl could carry more bass, and they relented for the single.

To this day, you can hear far more bass on Paperback Writer than any Beatles track before it.

For reference, I don’t do vinyl, so that’s not an issue for me - but please feel free to continue discussing it.

More later.

 

[sarumbear]

summing to mono?

Yes

 

[Stokdoof]

When at home I can listen to music at 3m below sea level.

 

[sarumbear]

What I’ll say immediately, is that some people here are mind readers when they quote Led Zep. Every year (sometimes 2 or 3 times a year) we go on holiday, and I make a 20 track playlist to share across the family. I compile it and ‘road test’ it first for a few weeks, tweaking until I think it’s right. Two recent playlists have included Led Zep tracks, and they’re the least bass-y of any of the tracks on their respective playlists.

No question, they’re really lacking in bass.

Very true

Regarding vinyl, I know of one story. The bass was very light on early Beatles LPs and singles. When PMc complained he was told the needle would jump if there was too much bass.

The advance reading head I mentioned earlier was introduced around 1970 hence was not used for cutting the early Beatles records.

Anyway, it got to 1966 and Paperback Writer/Rain was pegged for release at the end of the month. Brian Wilson flew to England with an advance copy of Pet Sounds, with much deeper bass than The Beatles had managed. PMc took it to the powers that be to insist it was proof that vinyl could carry more bass, and they relented for the single.

To this day, you can hear far more bass on Paperback Writer than any Beatles track before it.

However, a standard 4-string bass guitar's lowest note is E1, which is 41.20Hz. That would be the lowest note on Paperback Writer. Below is the 2022 mix.

 

[dasdoing]

For reference, the low E on a bass is 41.20Hz. Some orchestral players will have a C extension that takes it down to 32.7Hz. The lowest note on most pianos is A at 27.5Hz.

yea, we have discussed these before. none of these fundemantals are audible. you will only hear the overtones. even most organs wont have audible fundemantals that deep. though there are some that can do it. but we are talking about instruments the size of a building.

 

[fineMen]

For example:

You are sure that the examples do not show simple artifacts from (arbitrarily) selecting the time frames? Second to that is the 'sound' anyhow correlated to the payload (e/g music) or some artifact from the surrounding of the recording venue? ( I once had a commercial recording that had some pigeons on roof during the celebrated organ session. How high can you count? I think it were two. )

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Huge thanks again for the contributions.

I mainly listen to rock/soul/acoustic, occasionally dance/trip hop. Most of the music I listen to where I want to hear everything (bass, detail, the lot) would be rock stuff. There’s a running theme through this thread that you’re not going a lot lower than 30-40hz with the vast majority of this stuff.

I grinned a bit at killingbeans comments on church organs, as my degree is in theology, and my dissertation was spirituality in music. I didn’t want to go down that rabbit hole, but I’m glad you did.

I think a lot of discussion about low sounds being there, but being quiet - this rings true.

Some very good points about the lowest frequencies being felt rather than heard. Coupled with my previous paragraph, I suspect a lot of the very LF sounds are there, but audibly masked, but still felt.

Another grin on reading tmtomh mentioning Massive Attack. The track I was listening to referenced in post 1 was their track Angel.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Very true

View attachment 300159


The advance reading head I mentioned earlier was introduced around 1970 hence was not used for cutting the early Beatles records.


However, a standard 4-string bass guitar's lowest note is E1, which is 41.20Hz. That would be the lowest note on Paperback Writer. Below is the 2022 mix.

View attachment 300160

Cheers.

If you listen to Please Please Me (as an example), then Paperback Writer , you can certainly hear the bass more clearly.

That story comes from PMc himself - I pass on to you that which I received…

 

[dasdoing]

I suspect a lot of the very LF sounds are there, but audibly masked, but still fel

this could be true also,
but I once tested, i think it was, 15Hz-ish in my system that goes that low and lower because of room gain and I could hear it clearly, but than I couldn't when I put my fingers in my ears. but this could be happening at (even) higher SPLs only. I can imagine a huge church organ producing "rumble" above 100dB.

on the other hand when people say they feel bass, most of the time they just feel their seat vibrating lol. which will happen mostly at room modes frequencies

 

[dasdoing]

as well movie soundtracks.

I have checked that list before, the few I tried had no audible stuff, other than one scene in a computer room

 

[fineMen]

this could be true also,
but I once tested, i think it was, 15Hz-ish in my system that goes that low and lower because of room gain and I could hear it clearly, but than I couldn't when I put my fingers in my ears. but this could be happening at (even) higher SPLs only. I can imagine a huge church organ producing "rumble" above 100dB.

on the other hand when people say they feel bass, most of the time they just feel their seat vibrating lol. which will happen mostly at room modes frequencies

I actually cannot hear below 30Hz using either a speaker well capable of delivering 20Hz clean and loud, nor using headphones of various types. But I observed more drama (hope this term invokes some idea of what I mean) with 30Hz plus some port noise from the speaker. This chuffing, roar so to say gave the otherwise wimpy sensation of the clean note more heft.

 

[fpitas]

You can sense down to 0Hz (atmospheric pressure change), but the mechanism is not strictly auditory and the SPL thresholds are well over 100dB.

I know I mostly feel 40Hz and below, rather than hear it.

 

[fpitas]

I actually cannot hear below 30Hz using either a speaker well capable of delivering 20Hz clean and loud, nor using headphones of various types. But I observed more drama (hope this term invokes some idea of what I mean) with 30Hz plus some port noise from the speaker. This chuffing, roar so to say gave the otherwise wimpy sensation of the clean note more heft.

That's the first positive thing I've read about port noise.

 

[Zensō]

It depends upon the genre and delivery medium, but it’s fairly common practice to place a high pass filter at ~25Hz on the master buss.

 

[Zensō]

Speaking of Led Zeppelin, John Bonham was famous for his huge bass drum sound. He played what were larger than usual kick drums for that era, with less muffling than normal, often recorded in highly reverberant rooms. You could clearly hear the big, open drum, yet there was a lack of warmth and deep bass. I guess it illustrates that the cues that make a drum sound large are not necessarily the lowest tones but more the character of the harmonics, sustain, and reverberation.

 

[dasdoing]

here is a brickwall LP at 20Hz https://drive.google.com/file/d/14IUg0S_4CJjEVe1X7fFgQIAxq1m1HFTZ/view?usp=sharing

throw it in EQ-APO convolver, and than test it with this:

you hear it? good
now double the speed in Youtube (= 22Hz) - tone should be gone.

now play your deepest tracks through it and try to find any output. you probably will find some. but how loud is it? take out the filter to compare the loudness in relation to the rest.


warning: this is an extreme FIR filter. mecanical and/or digital artifacts might apear. try this out with the volume all down and than move up

 

[Galliardist]

Listen to a baroque trio and you won’t notice until 60Hz.

Seven string gamba in a lower baroque pitch, you might well hit 50Hz or lower. Theorboes can go down into the 35Hz range. Still, point taken.

 

[Galliardist]

Speaking of Led Zeppelin, John Bonham was famous for his huge bass drum sound. He played what were larger than usual kick drums for that era, with less muffling than normal, often recorded in highly reverberant rooms. You could clearly hear the big, open drum, yet there was a lack of warmth and deep bass. I guess it illustrates that the cues that make a drum sound large are not necessarily the lowest tones but more the character of the harmonics, sustain, and reverberation.

That's actually the case for most really low bass instruments - they put out more energy in harmonics. That's why speakers that don't go all the way down still work, though you will notice the fundamental as well when it is present, of course.

Instrument design evolves so the instruments become "louder"; they put out energy where you can more clearly hear.