How long is HD800S listening fatigue lasting?

[DEF]

First time ever I got listening fatigue with a Headphone.
Listened at -35db with Auto Ref on with my RME ADI 2 DAC FS
But listening fatigue still strong after 2 days.

Wished I never tried HD 800 S.
Usually I listen with DT 770 Pro 250 Ohm at -27.5 dB max depending on the Song and never any issue.

 

[DVDdoug]

Listening fatigue is a very individual thing and it's more "psychology" than "audio".

Some quick research and calculations (not guaranteed to be correct) says the RME has "high power" and "low power" settings. At the high power setting 0dB (peak) should be 112dB SPL with the HD 800S. (That's a 0dB digital signal and 0dB of attenuation.) -35dB brings that down to 77dB SPL. The low power setting is 15dB lower.

In my quick-search I didn't find the sensitivity specs for the DT 770...

 

[DEF]

Listening fatigue is a very individual thing and it's more "psychology" than "audio".

That may be true but the aftermath I can still feel.
The issue is that after the exposure I am more sensitive than usual.
Just opening the faucet and water comes out, the frequency of that is painful now.

It appears that it really made me sore.

 

[Cecill]

Hi DEF,
I also have RME, but with HD650. I use them with EQ and loudness engaged. Have you tried that?

 

[DEF]

Hi DEF,
I also have RME, but with HD650. I use them with EQ and loudness engaged. Have you tried that?

Yes I had tried that. The HD 800 S are on their way back. But I am more confused about how it could leave me sore after moderate listening levels for days.

 

[majingotan]

Your HRTF just doesn't jive with the HD 800 S that's all. EQing to a target curve won't really fix that issue as the fatiguing FR peak is unique to your HRTF.

 

[Kuma]

Listening fatigue is a very individual thing and it's more "psychology" than "audio"..,

I agree with this. I spend 8 hours a day editing with headphones on. I’m currently using HD650s though and EQ’d RME. When I first started editing with this setup, rather than through monitors, I experienced fatigue; just a feeling of get these things off my head and off my ears.

I find it very easy to increase volume throughout the day as my ears adjust to the db levels, but now I not to, as that will lead to this discomfort that you mention.

 

[Kuma]

And just to ad, I don’t have the 800s. Just commenting on listening fatigue in general. I have been tempted to buy the 800s, but the 600s and 650s work well enough for me so far.

 

[DEF]

And just to ad, I don’t have the 800s. Just commenting on listening fatigue in general. I have been tempted to buy the 800s, but the 600s and 650s work well enough for me so far.

I had both. The HD800S did cause that fatigue. They are very different Headphones

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Use EQ you won't have problem with listening fatigue.

 

[solderdude]

I suggest to visit an (ear) doctor.
A HD800S simply cannot 'demolish' hearing like that.
I suspect at the same time you bought/tried the HD800 something may have happened with your hearing that causes this effect.
Viral infection, blocked Eustachian tube or something else that causes fatigue.

There is nothing in the HD800S response (nor it being very open so unable to add some atmospheric pressure at all) which might happen with DT770 (with pleather pads) as the mount Beyer treble peak is higher than that of the HD800S.

Listening fatigue from Grado and Beyers always disappears directly and does not leave permanent damage unless you have been blasting your ears at high volume for years.
So ... it reckon your situation has nothing to do with the HD800S nor any 'pressure' being built up (HD800 simply can't). I reckon it is just a coincidence that this happened at the moment you were trying out the HD800S.

Another possibility is that, given the large circumference of the pads, the HD800S has given some pressure on a specific part of your head that causes this.
I have a friend that gave up on headphones as it turned out the pressure on certain points at his skull gave him issues.
Using the smaller pads of other headphones may never have 'touched' that area so might never have bothered you before.

 

[Soandso]

... But listening fatigue still strong after 2 days.

Alpha brain wave levels naturally will change upwards while listening in order to continue focus as sound fatigue begins. Although normally the base line alpha activity is less of a factor paradoxically the increase in alpha oscillations occurs at both the poorest and best signal to noise ratio (SNR). However there is a time factor such that with the entrainment of fatigue those elevated alpha brain wave levels of activity are not sustained and alpha oscillations over time decrease. Now if one has hearing loss the alpha oscillation peaks are relatively less and, although I am not certain, think subsequently fall more dramatically as sound fatigue worsens than when there's no underlying hearing loss. There are theta wave oscillations in brain regions as well, although in general those seem easiest to describe as interactive with alpha wave changes rather than being independently causative of listening fatigue.

Point being your prolonged sound fatigue seems to be resulting from some degree of carried forward in time depressed alpha wave oscillations. That it appears now with those specific headphones may be simply a factor of some kind of hearing loss you did not account for. Possibly (?) that specific extended period at which you listened to a certain volume provoked a transitory "loss"(functional reduction); and then again there may be some undiagnosed age related "loss" contributing to the issue. [I'm assuming no drug(s) interaction is relevant.]

Short story = your normal brain alpha wave oscillatory rebound capacity was disrupted for about at least 2 days. Low alpha activity is not conducive to sustained bran focus = mental fatigue.

 

[Phorize]

I had both. The HD800S did cause that fatigue. They are very different Headphones

The hearing system is psycho/social as well as physiological. I'm definitely not saying you may have hyperacusis, but this article illustrates the issues around hearing and subjective comfort/wellbeing very well:

Hyperacusis Assessment Questionnaire—A New Tool Assessing Hyperacusis in Subjects with Tinnitus - PMC

Hyperacusis, a kind of decreased sound tolerance, is difficult to measure objectively. It often co-occurs with tinnitus. There is a need for valid and reliable patient-reported outcome measures to capture this subjective phenomenon. The aim of the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[DEF]

I suggest to visit an (ear) doctor.
A HD800S simply cannot 'demolish' hearing like that.
I suspect at the same time you bought/tried the HD800 something may have happened with your hearing that causes this effect.
Viral infection, blocked Eustachian tube or something else that causes fatigue.

There is nothing in the HD800S response (nor it being very open so unable to add some atmospheric pressure at all) which might happen with DT770 (with pleather pads) as the mount Beyer treble peak is higher than that of the HD800S.

Neither is. I always was had a very elevated sense of hearing, and certain frequencies make my ears flatter.
Even, if I speak and accidentally hit a harsh tone.
Especially sibilances, echo, reflections are problematic.

I simply cannot communicate in the hallway / stairwell ... wherever is much echo.

@amirm talks about phase shift, and that that for instance is not even absent in headphones https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...se-distortion-shift-matter-in-audio-no.24026/

And about pressure: I am certain that you misunderstand what was meant with it.
If you travel with the train and drive through a tunnel, you can feel pressure.
However, when hearing, this type of pressure is very subtle.

When I was 5 years old, I loved to listen to classical recordings through a portable radio.
It had a LOUDNESS button. Pressing it yielded similar responses to me of feeling pressure.

That said, with headphones, a closer description of it can be made.
You are well aware that your headphone can reproduce sounds that normally only happen without headphones, right?
If you are blocking your ear canal with a finger, if you yawn, and so on.

Now if that ear canal / that opening is not blocked but you can still hear / feel that, similar as to phantom/ghost touch, that's something we need to consider.
We do in fact, feel some frequencies instead of hearing them.

I do remember a diagram of a well-known headphone maker which did aim to direct the sounds more closely to the ear canal.
"In air, sound pressure can be measured using a microphone, and in water with a hydrophone." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure which can be measured with a microphone

By the way, thats also the reason I do not use noise-cancelling headphones, as I feel pressure.

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/13unu5b/ear_pressure_from_noise_cancelling_headphones

Noise cancelling does not make any pressure in your ears, or rather they make the same amount of pressure normal headphones do. When you enable noise cancelling, it sounds very much like your ears need to pop, because when your ears need to pop everything goes quieter, so your brain thinks "I have heard this before, my ears need to pop" but it is mistaken.
I have never heard of the effect happening after the headphones are removed though. One side effect of TMJ is the muscles surrounding the ear canal swelling and making your ability to hear reduced. I am definitely not an ear doctor but that would be where my money goes.

I am claiming that, like other healthy individuals, we can feel that, and it can be due to various factors.

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/187wzaa/listen_a_new_hd800s_feels_pressure_build_up_in_ear

When listening to HD 800 S, my ear did pop a lot - as per above description. Drinking something then make them unpop, but it's just inconvenient

By the way, the fatigue still partially persists.

 

[solderdude]

Any resonances and peaks can be eliminated with EQ.
The problem is that most of the problematic ones are sibilance (around 6kHz) and sharpness (8-15kHz).
The latter simply is not possible to accurately measure and thus the EQ based on the usual measurements simply are incorrect.
The HD800 has a substantial (and narrow) peaks around 10kHz and 15kHz where the 10kHz peak is about +10dB.
The biggest issue here is that industry standard fixtures have a dip there and so frequencies above 10kHz (and thus also 15kHz) are done by using a few dB shelve and do not lower those peaks.
The ironic part is that removing too much 10+15kHz affects the (somewhat artificial) stereo imaging/depth.
That just takes getting used to and accepting something's gotta give.
The toilet paper just does that measurable but in the process also lowers some of the 'special abilities' of this headphone.
As I have a 12kHz tinnitus in my left ear I am quite sensitive to this.

It is possible you were 'plagued' by those resonances... hard to imagine this could have a lasting effect but as you say your hearing seems to be a-typical.

I have always (in my younger years) perceived 19kHz as a 'pressure' instead of a tone at higher SPL.

When I was 5 years old, I loved to listen to classical recordings through a portable radio.
It had a LOUDNESS button. Pressing it yielded similar responses to me of feeling pressure.

Portable radios (the speakers in it) rarely would reproduce anything above 10kHz and loudness in those radios would only have boosted the 100Hz region a few dB and add a little treble. It would be hard to explain why it would bring any HF pressure (nor LF) because the speakers could not reproduce that, at higher volume level settings the loudness action would be 'off' as well.

Phase response does not seem very problematic in the HD800S.

Certainly better than the DT770 Pro 250:

 

[DEF]

The biggest issue here is that industry standard fixtures have a dip there and so frequencies above 10kHz (and thus also 15kHz) are done by using a few dB shelve and do not lower those peaks.
The ironic part is that removing too much 10+15kHz affects the (somewhat artificial) stereo imaging/depth.

Okay, so, in other words, for my case, I cannot take Audiosciencereview measurements as a tool to estimate what I may like.

 

[solderdude]

You can from 100Hz to 8kHz (below 100Hz is seal dependent so when Amir states he had no issues with getting a good seal it is down to 20Hz) and assuming your preference in tonal response matches that of the Harman research.

When looking at 5128 measurements you can get more accurate FR up to 10-12kHz.

It can't tell you whether or not one likes the headphone or if it triggers fatigue or tinnitus.

 

[Sokel]

I can "tell" a pronounced,sibilance-d,bad engineered,not flat 3-8kHz area since I was a kid when my parents got me my first stereo and a little afterwards when I got my first headphones (other than my walkman,yes,I'm getting old ) which were the AT ATH M2 orthodynamics which I still use after 40 years.

I choose both exactly because they were nice up there (these AT's have the nicest midrange in the multiverse .
Same with LCD-X's,I choose them against other which I liked more (physically) cause they don't bother,same with all my gear,etc.

Whoever doesn't have this problem cannot understand it.It's psychical.It causes a round headache to me for example,it's not some nonsense preference.
I'd rather listen to a nice chainsaw than the B&W with the pronounced highs for example.
Countless doctor visits,plus the every year deep cleaning,etc.It doesn't have to be something wrong,just some of us are wired a little different as it seems.

Just ease,it will go away.

(on the other hand I know sad stories with people that prefer to make their ears bleed than admitting that their gear cause them fatigue )

 

[DEF]

Effects slowly seeming to wear off. But its still there.