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How do you manage your bass for HT?

Oddball

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While this has obviously been discussed many times over, perhaps time to revamp the discussion given some more or less new developments.

1. Dirac ART is here in whatever form and available on Storm exclusively, hopefully on other platforms soon
2. D&M has introduced new LFE and directional bass management features in 2023 to align with Storm.
3. Trinnov has introduced its own new solutions in the bass management area - WaweForming

So how do you manage your bass for HT? Couple of questions associated with that that I might expect people would be interested in, obviously this is freestyle so people welcome to contribute in any way shape form scope they want.

1. Which room correction software are you using and why
2. What bass management options in addition to RCS if it allows any, like LFE+Main or LFE distribution
3. What is your set-up preference - bookshelves with subs, LR towers and rest bookshelves with subs, towers for all bed channels (perhaps without center if you need to use horizontal one) with subs, and what are you currently using from these setups
4. How many subs you have and are they the same or at least similar
5. What is your house curve, including any sub and AVR AVP gain over the calibration "reference"
6. How do you deal with the content that has varying levels of bass content both in terms of absolute volume and also low end cut off (i.e. bass filtered movies)

Would appreciate sharing your experience in this area. Thanks in advance.
 

ppataki

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I have a PC as the source and I have one DIY sub (also see another photo about it in my signature)
I integrate it manually by measuring the delay using acoustic measurements and applying a linear phase crossover at 80Hz using thEQorange
Then I apply Dirac Live - so Dirac basically does not 'see' the sub separately since it is integrated into the fronts.
Then I apply a custom target curve (low shelf, +11dB at 75Hz with Q=1.0)

I have tried using Dirac Live to manage the sub with poor results and also tried DLBC with even worse results...

And some measurements here
 
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Oddball

Oddball

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I have a PC as the source and I have one DIY sub (also see another photo about it in my signature)
I integrate it manually by measuring the delay using acoustic measurements and applying a linear phase crossover at 80Hz using thEQorange
Then I apply Dirac Live - so Dirac basically does not 'see' the sub separately since it is integrated into the fronts.
Then I apply a custom target curve (low shelf, +11dB at 75Hz with Q=1.0)

I have tried using Dirac Live to manage the sub with poor results and also tried DLBC with even worse results...
Many thanks for your input and the links. I will need to digest as not a pain vanilla setup :) But again, grateful for the contribution as I really want to better understand what are other members doing. BTW, are you adjusting your output based on the source material or just leave it at "reference"?
 

ppataki

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Many thanks for your input and the links.

You are welcome :)

are you adjusting your output based on the source material or just leave it at "reference"?

Good question....I have also noticed that there are movies where LFE output is indeed limited and there are others where it is more pronounced
I have decided not to adjust, I am using my 'reference' settings for all the movies
Having said that I could very easily create two or more variants for the settings (in Jriver) and quickly A-B switch them if needed
 
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Oddball

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Many thanks - I do have like 4 presents and run according to the content. Not saying it’s the best practice but just my preference.
 
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Oddball

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I guess in absence of full ART analysis, this is probably the best option out there
 

Andysu

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bass , well my THX cinema can do , star wars with the bass " baby boom " channel in the correct speaker layout of JBL five screen Lc Rc , or use separate JBL subs front of the room on the floor or front extra middle JBL or same one at back of the room or use them all , i call it , 2/4/6/8
 

FrantzM

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Hi

I use a mini
I have 4 subs so I use a mini DSP with multi sub optimizer and REW. But I enjoyed the tinkering process.
So do I. I use a miniDSP2x4 HD for my 2 subwoofers (hoping to add another subwoofer this year) with the free and powerful MSO Software; free, powerful but frankly unwieldy software with a steep learning curve. You must also use REW, another free, feature- rich software as well with MSO. Not for the faint of heart. The resulting subwoofer is then presented to my AVR as a single input/subwoofer. Then I use the $200 (or so) Audyssey MultEQX Windows application to integrate the other speakers with the “single sub”. The results are superb in my IME and as verified byREW Measurements.

This sound complicated and frankly it is. I don’t know if a better alternative at a similar price, or, frankly multiple of its price. I am not convinced by Dirac DLBC, which by the way cost more. No one has shown me any proof that it is superior to MSO. I tend to believe that TRINNOV software solution is among the best but the price is eye watering.

Bass management is not an easy thing to accomplish. The Buzz about Dirac various solutions is great but proofs of their efficaciousness are not there. Serious, serious comparisons between Dirac and others? I am waiting.

In the meantime and after several months of researching and learning and of frustration, MSO + REW + Audyssey MultEQx coupled with a miniDSP 2x4HD for a total cash outlay of less than $700 (if you include the obligatory Umik1 measurement microphone), remains an extraordinary high performance but complicated and complex solution … If you can’t swing for the fences of TRINNOV, Storm or the dark horse here, Lyngdorf. All those are at least > $10000 and the jury is out on the comparisons…
In the meantime, enjoying incredible linear and deep bass, I reach 17 Hz flat at at least, up to 108 db the listening positions, yes positionS with this.

Peace.
 
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Oddball

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Hi

I use a mini

So do I. I use a miniDSP2x4 HD for my 2 subwoofers (hoping to add another subwoofer this year) with the free and powerful MSO Software; free, powerful but frankly unwieldy software with a steep learning curve. You must also use REW, another free, feature- rich software as well with MSO. Not for the faint of heart. The resulting subwoofer is then presented to my AVR as a single input/subwoofer. Then I use the $200 (or so) Audyssey MultEQX Windows application to integrate the other speakers with the “single sub”. The results are superb in my IME and as verified byREW Measurements.

This sound complicated and frankly it is. I don’t know if a better alternative at a similar price, or, frankly multiple of its price. I am not convinced by Dirac DLBC, which by the way cost more. No one has shown me any proof that it is superior to MSO. I tend to believe that TRINNOV software solution is among the best but the price is eye watering.

Bass management is not an easy thing to accomplish. The Buzz about Dirac various solutions is great but proofs of their efficaciousness are not there. Serious, serious comparisons between Dirac and others? I am waiting.

In the meantime and after several months of researching and learning and of frustration, MSO + REW + Audyssey MultEQx coupled with a miniDSP 2x4HD for a total cash outlay of less than $700 (if you include the obligatory Umik1 measurement microphone), remains an extraordinary high performance but complicated and complex solution … If you can’t swing for the fences of TRINNOV, Storm or the dark horse here, Lyngdorf. All those are at least > $10000 and the jury is out on the comparisons…
In the meantime, enjoying incredible linear and deep bass, I reach 17 Hz flat at at least, up to 108 db the listening positions, yes positionS with this.

Peace.
I think you got it all covered and using best tools out there. DLBC could arguably do similar thing, but probably not as good, and would need 2 independent sub outputs from the AVR. But could do it quickly, so the only advantage is really less investment in the setup time - at expense of some quality and ability to customize hell out of it.

If you have 2 independent sub outputs I understand you could import REW filters that MultiEQX would then process, and could add some further Audy filters on top. I don't think that it works with MSO filters, or at least not natively. So again, your system is above what can be done with MultiEQX.

Re Trinnov, it is really flexible, but it's newest Waveforming bass thingy is just mostly recycled front and back bass array setup. And requires careful room positioning and like 8 subs, so obviously not cost effective solution. The advantage is that Trinnov will do very detailed and sometimes useful bass routing and 3D mapping if speaker positioning is not ideal. Storm can do ART and DLBC, but without its Bass routing software. In order to do bass routing, one would need to EQ in REW and import as PEQ filters, which is what biggest systems with many towers would probably want to do. ART is whatever it will turn out to be. Apparently not fully baked yet, although available on Storm. Lyngdorf is on my to-do list but has been for quite a while :).

Do you have any towers in the system and if so are you using the LFE+Main bass routing? Or LFE distribution if 2023/4 D&M models?
 

peng

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I am not convinced by Dirac DLBC, which by the way cost more. No one has shown me any proof that it is superior to MSO. I tend to believe that TRINNOV software solution is among the best but the price is eye watering.
Very interesting, let's say DLBC was superior, but what would you need for "proof"? DBT, REW, both, or something else?

If REW is good enough, what kind of measurements could convince you?

I have done my part comparing Audyssey Multeq Editor+Ratbudyssey, Audyssey+minidsp+REW, Anthem ARC Genesis bass optimization/phase control, and DLBC, but never tried MSO. I know which one would work best for me, but I am curious about how one would go about proving which way is more effective than the others.


Bass management is not an easy thing to accomplish. The Buzz about Dirac various solutions is great but proofs of their efficaciousness are not there. Serious, serious comparisons between Dirac and others? I am waiting.

In the meantime and after several months of researching and learning and of frustration, MSO + REW + Audyssey MultEQx coupled with a miniDSP 2x4HD for a total cash outlay of less than $700 (if you include the obligatory Umik1 measurement microphone), remains an extraordinary high performance but complicated and complex solution
I am lucky, have no need to use any more than 2 main subs, I do use 3 secondary ones but those are just used to supplement my surround speakers that are nowhere near being full range on their own. Other than that, I see no need to complicate things by adding minidsp (tried and still have one 2×4HD doing nothing) and/or mso to the mix. I am convinced DLBC works well, based on subjective listening and a plenty of REW graphs, don't know how to prove to, or convince others lol..
 
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Oddball

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Well that is a very interesting setup. Am I reading it correct? 2 LFE subs and 3 dedicated subs supporting 3 separate surrounds? So the rest of the bed channels (including the center?) would be equivalent of full-range? And what DLBC crossover/s do you use to make it all work? Also, did you ever try overlapping such setup (i.e. large bed with subs) with LFE+Main and LFE distribution which would require D&M or Storm (from top of my head)?

I am struggling with giving up the Audy overlap despite DLBC sounding a bit tighter, but also "lighter" (although different processors, AV-10 vs Storm 16 that was ran as demo in my system). The overall contribution of the bed channels (9 of them) is notable and overall positive, but full integration is not quite there. This is mostly because this is an evolving setup as I keep growing the system, so to be seen how it will work at the end. And since don't have much time, this is going really slow.

EDIT: One of the reasons I have posted this thread is just to see how many alternatives are out there. At least to me, seems like not a topic that is quite interesting and we already got some really good examples. While not many people seem to be interested, I would be grateful if the ones that are continue to contribute their experiences.
 

peng

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1717158836159.jpeg

Well that is a very interesting setup. Am I reading it correct? 2 LFE subs and 3 dedicated subs supporting 3 separate surrounds? So the rest of the bed channels (including the center?) would be equivalent of full-range? And what DLBC crossover/s do you use to make it all work? Also, did you ever try overlapping such setup (i.e. large bed with subs) with LFE+Main and LFE distribution which would require D&M or Storm (from top of my head)?

I experimented different ways, eventually took the easy way out, so as it is now, I use two SVS subs (real subs haha...) for the front row, one sub for the surround left and one sub to the surround right, and one sub for the surround back channels, and no subs for the Atmos channels.

The surround channels are basically connected in parallel with the speakers and would behave, and seen by the AVP as full range speakers, sort of similar to D+M's "Directional bass, I guess). I did check the FR with REW when I had the Denon and using Audyssey, obviously, and they integrate quite well, though there's sort of a couple dB high shelf like filter effect in the upper mid bass range, but that would be an issue (visibly speaking that it, by looking at the REW graph) when I swept with 7 channel running simultaneously).

I am struggling with giving up the Audy overlap despite DLBC sounding a bit tighter, but also "lighter" (although different processors, AV-10 vs Storm 16 that was ran as demo in my system). The overall contribution of the bed channels (9 of them) is notable and overall positive, but full integration is not quite there. This is mostly because this is an evolving setup as I keep growing the system, so to be seen how it will work at the end. And since don't have much time, this is going really slow.

EDIT: One of the reasons I have posted this thread is just to see how many alternatives are out there. At least to me, seems like not a topic that is quite interesting and we already got some really good examples. While not many people seem to be interested, I would be grateful if the ones that are continue to contribute their experiences.
On DLBC, I got a couple graphs for you to peruse:
You can see that why in my case I see no need to try MSO, if I have already paid for the DLBC license, and yeah, ouch it costs a fortune, relatively speaking!

Below are for 2 channel use only, but I wish D+M would find a way to let people use DLBC with Audyssey DEQ, as better results are possible, based on my little experiment.


1717158836117.jpeg


This one shows using DLBC with Audyssey FL/FR bypss tightened up the deep bass range a little more, visibly anyway:

1717159630229.jpeg
 
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Oddball

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Many thanks for the response. I am not really there to do REW as the whole system needs a bit of old fashioned ear tunning first. Just added new towers and another sub, so it will take some time to figure out what that does for the system. I am not particularly fond of REW-ing, although recognize it is necessary, but REW-ing at the right points where I find the sound satisfying is what I generally do. Saves some time and effort, and my ears are still somewhat good for something. Speaking of it, one of the shows I really liked is See :D.
 

fordiebianco

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I have to admit that I am not as fussed about perfect bass response as long as I perceive it's there (Michael Bay helicopters and Level 42 bass comes to mind). I have 2 old active subwoofers (Yamaha and Gale) about 1 meter under the TV, 2 meters apart in an Ikea cabinet (overall 5.2 setup). Room and levels are measured and adapted with D&M's Audyssey Sub EQ HT. Works well and have no complaints.

Sorry for the unscientific response.
 
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Oddball

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I have to admit that I am not as fussed about perfect bass response as long as I perceive it's there (Martin Bay helicopters and Level 42 bass comes to mind). I have 2 old active subwoofers (Yamaha and Gale) about 1 meter under the TV, 2 meters apart in an Ikea cabinet (overall 5.2 setup). Room and levels are measured and adapted with D&M's Audyssey Sub EQ HT. Works well and have no complaints.

Sorry for the unscientific response.
I appreciate the input and is very interesting. Paints the picture what different people do and are more or less happy with.

We all have different preferences and various limitations how to get there and that is perfectly fine.

My biggest issue is actually not in hardware as that is pretty adjustable and controllable. This is probably odd, but thus the Oddball - I prefer elevated bass levels throughout the movie, which works well with some titles, but then falls miserably with titles that use extreme bass levels to illustrate extreme bass scenes like T-Rex, celestial immergence, galactic cruiser panning on the screen, etc. They have every right to keep the real-live dynamics in the movies as that appears like a reasonable approach mimicking what would be the real world soundstage. But then you end up with a modest bass levels during most of these movies, which I don't find satisfying. Some movies do not use such large dynamic range difference between the regular and extreme bass scenes.

Thus I use different bass presets for different content trying to maximize the bass impact. To me this is more important than if my bass response is tunned 80% or 100% based on graphs. But for the titles with extreme bass levels in the extreme scenes, I did not find anything that works then dialing down the volume by 15-20dB.

If I used the single bass present for all the titles I was watching, I have a feeling that I would be missing too much. There is no such thing as "reference" when it comes to content.
 

fordiebianco

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Thus I use different bass presets for different content trying to maximize the bass impact.

Ah. Too fiddly for me.

On the other hand, now that I don't have no more neighbours, I enjoy a good old space ship panning from L to R. And the before mentioned helicopters.
 
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