How do you hear headphone 'soundstage'

[audiofooled]

I voted inside my head and for me it really takes a bit of a mind trickery to experience otherwise, such as this:

 

[phoenixdogfan]

With my Smyth A16 Realizer and my 24 channel in person in studio PRIR of Dutch&Dutch 8C's, I hear full Atmos, DTSX, and Auro3D sounds that capture what those speakers sound like playing in a good listening room.

 

[Robbo99999]

Hello All,

This may be of interest to some.

The gang of PhD's over a Facebook Reality Labs have recently written a AES published paper on this topic.

The Harman Target transfer function may be preferred for "music content" and a flat transfer function may be preferred for "spatial content".

Personally I feel that this concept needs more investigation. Music can be pretty spatial.

https://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20221009/21564.pdf

Thanks DT

I've downloaded that now, but not read it yet, I did skim the conclusion though - when you're referring to "spatial content" that seems to be referring to binaural recordings, which is a different discussion point than what we're doing here, as we're talking about music reproduction, generally in the form of stereo......so I think it's relevance is diminished in this context with regards to effect on soundstage perception. I'll read that paper later.

 

[solderdude]

Why should it be logical to rule out the idea that fidelity to the spatial nature of a recording, in addition to artificial sound wave manipulations, could enhance soundstage?

I do not rule out FR and fidelity as part of perceived spatial qualities.
I do not expect this to be in the 100-200Hz range. That said.. too much boost there 'muddies' up the sound and 'muddy' sound and good spatial qualities usually do not go hand in hand.
So U shaped is not the way there. Elevated treble (the right side of the U) certainly can have influence on the imaging/headstage.
Without any bass boost this often is 'sharp' or overly 'bright'. When one adds bass this 'balances' sound a bit.
DT990 etc. comes to mind for instance.

Stealth and Expanse are not U shaped though. They do have elevated bass (in Harman levels) and add a bit of 'punch' in the 100-200Hz region.
I do something similar but not as extreme as Harman/Dan.

I voted inside my head and for me it really takes a bit of a mind trickery to experience otherwise, such as this:

For me (HD800, no EQ) there is a lot of reverb, hall and (annoying) constant panning from L to R. Well to the left and right of the head but that's true for many recordings for me.
No height, no forward or back. Just a straight line between L and R without gaps in between (so no 3 'blobs').
At some moments the added hall effects bring the illusion it is coming from a far (back side) but still in the head.
I can hear (given the change in tonal balance and added hall effects) that the illusion should be sounds going around the head but for me it is a 'line' with different tonal balance (hard to fool I guess). So instead of 8D (does that exist ?) it is only 2D.

I can see this kind of processing 'helping' with some people. Just not for the unfortunate ones (like me) which are doomed to have in the head experiences only.
That is without Smyth or other trickery that the brain needs to accept as reality.

 

[JanesJr1]

I do not rule out FR and fidelity as part of perceived spatial qualities.
I do not expect this to be in the 100-200Hz range. That said.. too much boost there 'muddies' up the sound and 'muddy' sound and good spatial qualities usually do not go hand in hand.
So U shaped is not the way there. Elevated treble (the right side of the U) certainly can have influence on the imaging/headstage.
Without any bass boost this often is 'sharp' or overly 'bright'. When one adds bass this 'balances' sound a bit.
DT990 etc. comes to mind for instance.

Stealth and Expanse are not U shaped though. They do have elevated bass (in Harman levels) and add a bit of 'punch' in the 100-200Hz region.
I do something similar but not as extreme as Harman/Dan.



For me (HD800, no EQ) there is a lot of reverb, hall and (annoying) constant panning from L to R. Well to the left and right of the head but that's true for many recordings for me.
No height, no forward or back. Just a straight line between L and R without gaps in between (so no 3 'blobs').
At some moments the added hall effects bring the illusion it is coming from a far (back side) but still in the head.
I can hear (given the change in tonal balance and added hall effects) that the illusion should be sounds going around the head but for me it is a 'line' with different tonal balance (hard to fool I guess). So instead of 8D (does that exist ?) it is only 2D.

I can see this kind of processing 'helping' with some people. Just not for the unfortunate ones (like me) which are doomed to have in the head experiences only.
That is without Smyth or other trickery that the brain needs to accept as reality.

Double check the Stealth vs Expanse. FR curve and Dan C say Stealth is more like the Noire. But mostly in upper bass, and I agree that is hard to figure given Dan's claim that it affects soundstage.

The upper bass bump seems to be ok on the "muddy" issue down below 160 Hz where Dan has placed it. (Not as a soundstage issue, just the punch enhancement.) I tried going a little higher and had to keep it tame to avoid that.

 

[JanesJr1]

I voted inside my head and for me it really takes a bit of a mind trickery to experience otherwise, such as this:

That selection even works to create a healthy soundstage on my IEM's ... but it must include some kind of phase or inter-aural manipulation, no?

 

[04gto]

I voted "it depends" because I can experience soundstage on a headphone (or IEM) a lot of different ways depending on the headphone. A few examples:

HD800/S- 3D, but a bit more in width. With variable depth in all directions. Though sometimes bigger than it should be.

LCD-XC (2021)- 3D almost like a perfect sphere around my head. Can articulate some for accuracy to the track. More sound from the rear than most other headphones.

Focal Radiance- Almost entirely inside my head. Extreme claustrofobia, please let me out. (catch and release on these)

HD6XX- In my head. However after switching to the ZMF suede pads, I do get slightly out of my head left, right. Front is more inside my head, just leaning front.

HD560S- Just a little outside of my head left. right, front.

64 Audio Nio- 3D. Inside of a small sphere. Has the ability to sound bigger or smaller, track dependent. Big for an IEM. As long as you use the less restrictive APEX modules (MX, N0, N15, M15)

 

[Robin L]

I voted inside my head and for me it really takes a bit of a mind trickery to experience otherwise, such as this:

I'm hearing a lump of mono surrounded by reverb that moves back and forth between my ears. Not convincing at all. I've heard some binaural recordings that gave a successful illusion of front and back, this is not one of them.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I do not rule out FR and fidelity as part of perceived spatial qualities.
I do not expect this to be in the 100-200Hz range. That said.. too much boost there 'muddies' up the sound and 'muddy' sound and good spatial qualities usually do not go hand in hand.
So U shaped is not the way there. Elevated treble (the right side of the U) certainly can have influence on the imaging/headstage.
Without any bass boost this often is 'sharp' or overly 'bright'. When one adds bass this 'balances' sound a bit.
DT990 etc. comes to mind for instance.

Stealth and Expanse are not U shaped though. They do have elevated bass (in Harman levels) and add a bit of 'punch' in the 100-200Hz region.
I do something similar but not as extreme as Harman/Dan.



For me (HD800, no EQ) there is a lot of reverb, hall and (annoying) constant panning from L to R. Well to the left and right of the head but that's true for many recordings for me.
No height, no forward or back. Just a straight line between L and R without gaps in between (so no 3 'blobs').
At some moments the added hall effects bring the illusion it is coming from a far (back side) but still in the head.
I can hear (given the change in tonal balance and added hall effects) that the illusion should be sounds going around the head but for me it is a 'line' with different tonal balance (hard to fool I guess). So instead of 8D (does that exist ?) it is only 2D.

I can see this kind of processing 'helping' with some people. Just not for the unfortunate ones (like me) which are doomed to have in the head experiences only.
That is without Smyth or other trickery that the brain needs to accept as reality.

My two headphones are original HD 800s and LCD X, and I get full on "out of your head" room sound with both phones through the Smyth. I wish everyone could hear how the A16 really does pull this off. It's unfortunate that supply chain issues have made this remarkable product unobtainium for most people, because it;s really remarkable. And as one of only three people in the world who have the A16 AND a 24 channel measurement of Dutch&Dutch 8Cs, I can tell you it's capable of bringing state of the art sound with only it and headphones. Hope the Smyths right the ship soon. I'd like nothing better than for some of the people here to experience what the A16 can do. It's worth every penny IMHO.

 

[Count Arthur]

I voted inside my head and for me it really takes a bit of a mind trickery to experience otherwise, such as this:

For me that just goes back and forth between my ears; if anythng, slightly to the rear of my head, but not outside it.

 

[Robbo99999]

I voted inside my head and for me it really takes a bit of a mind trickery to experience otherwise, such as this:

That definitely worked for me, I shut my eyes so I don't even know if they provided any visual hints in the video or not (I didn't want to see any prompts). For me it certainly sounded like the lateral width was greater than with pretty much any of my music, with massive extension at times in distance to the left & right. Instruments and effects also panned behind my head regularly as they went from left to right, right to left, the effects never went in front of my head, only behind. There were a few times where I got the sensation that some of the effects and instruments passed over the top of my head as they panned left & right, and there were a few times where it would start panning over the top of my head and then the illusion was gone like it was now no longer panning over my head - there was even one time where I think it was a guitar, it was doing a figure 8 shape (lying on it's side behind my head varying in height in the shape of an infinity sign as it panned from left to right, right to left, making a shape of the infinity sign behind my head). I think what they've done with this music is that they've positionally processed it through a generic HRTF, similar to how gaming Virtual 7.1 Surround systems work (like the Creative Soundblaster Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound for instance). One difference though, that video never placed sound in front of me, instead only behind and left & right (all outside of my head), whereas Soundblaster's Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound will be able to put stuff in front & behind my head (as well as left & right outside of my head too).

(I listened to that vid using stock HD560s headphones)

 

[Doodski]

and (annoying) constant panning from L to R.

Annoying it was and awkward too... Why not raise the floor of the sound with both channels simultaneously to create a full sound floor that goes from bottom to top?

 

[Robbo99999]

For me (HD800, no EQ) there is a lot of reverb, hall and (annoying) constant panning from L to R. Well to the left and right of the head but that's true for many recordings for me.
No height, no forward or back. Just a straight line between L and R without gaps in between (so no 3 'blobs').
At some moments the added hall effects bring the illusion it is coming from a far (back side) but still in the head.
I can hear (given the change in tonal balance and added hall effects) that the illusion should be sounds going around the head but for me it is a 'line' with different tonal balance (hard to fool I guess). So instead of 8D (does that exist ?) it is only 2D.

I can see this kind of processing 'helping' with some people. Just not for the unfortunate ones (like me) which are doomed to have in the head experiences only.
That is without Smyth or other trickery that the brain needs to accept as reality.

You're definitely different to some people in terms of this, I couldn't ignore the position of the spatial effects in that video, and I had no idea what to expect going into that video.

(I'm tempted to think you're not letting yourself get absorbed into the experience, and tend to think you're not letting your visual imagination try to make positional sense of what you're hearing - like you're almost not letting yourself sense that sounds can come from outside of your head when you've got speakers clamped so close to your ears......but it might be something inavoidable in terms of some HRTF "peculiarities" or an unavoidable brain processing difference.)

 

[solderdude]

The barbershop also doesn't work for me, no matter if eyes closed or not. I know it is left and right and my pinna detect sounds coming from the sides.
I can hear the spatial clues but to me they are just 'artificial' (which they are).

I can imagine it comes from the front or rear but it doesn't. It comes from the sides of my head.

 

[Robbo99999]

The barbershop also doesn't work for me, no matter if eyes closed or not. I know it is left and right and my pinna detect sounds coming from the sides.
I can hear the spatial clues but to me they are just 'artificial' (which they are).

I can imagine it comes from the front or rear but it doesn't. It comes from the sides of my head.

"Artificial" is an interesting term. Of course we know it's artificial as of course it's simulated, but that doesn't mean it can't sound real - that vid sounds real to me in it's positional effects even though I know they're simulated. I'm also aware that the video is not absolutely perfect for me because there were a few times where the effect started panning over my head, but then the illusion failed, therefore it didn't make it all the way over the top of my head to the other side.......but there were also times where it was able to completely pan over my head from one side to the other - so I perceived some imperfections in the reality I think they were trying to concoct, but it was always out of my head and was convincing to me in terms of the spatial distance they created from me in terms of left & right and behind head, and occasionally above head (although that was the least convincing/real of the effects).

I don't know what to suggest, you could try a different "attitude"/"open-minded attentiveness" (and try to let yourself be placed in physical form within the music) when listening through headphones. You could also try training your brain through headphone use in some kind of gaming virtual world (first person view would be an important factor I think) within which you can move freely & interact where Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound is being used - you might find that something suddenly clicks in your brain.

 

[Talisman]

I have always used headphones only as a convenient system to have music everywhere always with me, since I was a kid with a Walkman and headphones around, since then my passion for music and listening has made many steps forward, since I understood the sensation and perception of music with good speakers, headphones have lost all appeal to me, except to have music around.
with the IEM it is as if the sound were streamed directly to the brain, with supra-aural headphones every now and then I had a semblance of a "soundstage" but always limited to the surroundings of the head.
Since I have a wife who screams every time I pass 9 on my amplifier, out of necessity I am trying some more advanced headphone systems (hifiman sundara) but I must say that as much as I recognize the qualitative value and the decent airiness, for me it is all very far away in sensations and pleasantness from having two beautiful speakers in front that make me tremble with every deep bass.

 

[Talisman]

I do agree that there’s a brain activity factor with regards to holographic 3D staging.

Regarding this, a very strange event has happened to me several times. sitting on my sofa, with the equilateral triangle speakers just over a meter and a half from me, every now and then, with certain tracks, when I close my eyes and look for the musical "trance", I can feel an incredible sensation, as if everything it moves away from me, as if a huge stage is expanding in front of me, it's a beautiful feeling but I consider it like an epileptic fit, something that only happens in my brain, because it happened with different speakers, different amplifiers, different dacs , it's something that when I focus on the music and the volume is loud enough from time to time it happens to me, but it's also evanescent, sometimes I can hold it for a few minutes, sometimes it just fades away after a few seconds.

 

[Robbo99999]

Regarding this, a very strange event has happened to me several times. sitting on my sofa, with the equilateral triangle speakers just over a meter and a half from me, every now and then, with certain tracks, when I close my eyes and look for the musical "trance", I can feel an incredible sensation, as if everything it moves away from me, as if a huge stage is expanding in front of me, it's a beautiful feeling but I consider it like an epileptic fit, something that only happens in my brain, because it happened with different speakers, different amplifiers, different dacs , it's something that when I focus on the music and the volume is loud enough from time to time it happens to me, but it's also evanescent, sometimes I can hold it for a few minutes, sometimes it just fades away after a few seconds.

(I think that's how my JBL 308p's sound all the time when I had them in an equilateral triangle - I don't get that so often now I've moved to a new place and they're at something stupid like 10 degrees off from centre, lol)

 

[Shadrach]

I've chosen the 3D option because it's the closest to what I hear but, it's more like a balloon with the back and bottom pushed in if that makes sense.
Sennheiser HD 595 with new ear pads.
Equalized to this:

AutoEq/Sennheiser HD 595 FixedBandEQ.txt at master · jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

Automatic headphone equalization from frequency responses - AutoEq/Sennheiser HD 595 FixedBandEQ.txt at master · jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

github.com

or this, depending on which computer I'm using.

AutoEq/Sennheiser HD 595 ParametricEQ.txt at master · jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

Automatic headphone equalization from frequency responses - AutoEq/Sennheiser HD 595 ParametricEQ.txt at master · jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

github.com

 

[Clarin_D]

AFAIK he averaged the PRTF (the difference between a pinna and no pinna on his fixture) of those headphones and used that as a target assuming a headphone that comes close to it must have good spatial properties and then good score that aspect.

For sake of posterity, Rtings (as of v1.5 at least) uses PRTF of a reference speaker at 30°.

My theory is that I think the fact EQ can't be used to fake soundstage is because PRTF is more of a correlation to soundstage, not causation. Rtings is using it to determine how speaker-like a particular pair of headphones activate the pinna but it's not necessarily the at-eardrum frequency response that ultimately produces the effect. Maybe a phase reversal also needs to be there at 10 kHz? The anti-resonance should mean you get a 180° phase change at the frequency. Though I kind of doubt humans can detect that.

As for how I perceive soundstage:
HD 700: frontal, about an inch in front of my forehead, left to right in a flat plane about 45° wide.
TYGR 300 R, DT 880, HD 559: left to right through head, not much out of head.
HiFiMan Eggs: for most instruments frontal, a tiny bit farther from my head than HD 700 but elevated, a lot higher above my head, on the ceiling at times. Vocals are always in my head for some reason.
Coincidentally I just ordered the HD 800 S, it's arriving tomorrow so I'll update here...
Funny thing about my ears is that my left ear sticks out a lot more from my head than my right ear, like, 33 mm vs 24 mm. Because of that (I think anyway), my left ear always perceives sounds as being a bit farther and more to the side than my right ear does when using over-ears.