Soundstage Maps & Microphone Techniques

[STC]

Ah, ok... I was having trouble following your post; is that the track you listened to three times?

yes. I also remember someone mentioning the in head experience was when the PA announcement but unable to locate that track. Nothing in this track sounded in head. I also read a 2013 papers which discussed about Toole’s 1970 papers among other research on externalization. I am not sure if I could replicate the scenario but I have to confess I don’t hear most of the stuff that typical HiFi listeners perceive. I noticed those hearing evolved by spending too much time with HiFi or recordings seemed to perceive stereo illusion a little different.

I noticed children with no hifi or headphones exposure seemed not to experience so many stuff that typical audiophiles claim to be hearing.

 

[Bugal1998]

yes. I also remember someone mentioning the in head experience was when the PA announcement but unable to locate that track. Nothing in this track sounded in head. I also read a 2013 papers which discussed about Toole’s 1970 papers among other research on externalization. I am not sure if I could replicate the scenario but I have to confess I don’t hear most of the stuff that typical HiFi listeners perceive. I noticed those hearing evolved by spending too much time with HiFi or recordings seemed to perceive stereo illusion a little different.

I noticed children with no hifi or headphones exposure seemed not to experience so many stuff that typical audiophiles claim to be hearing.

My experience with that track was among my very earliest hi-fi experiences 14 years ago; though I'm not sure what that would imply.

Some hi-fi listening is definitely learned (just like many types of nuanced forms of appreciation).

I've noticed that each time I make a meaningful change to the room/speakers/EQ it can take a few minutes for me to fully make sense of the room. Similarly, I may struggle to understand dialog in a reverberant room for the first few minutes before my brain figures it out.

My anectodotal experience is that new listeners in all of my rooms experience probably 90% of the same things I hear. Though I would anecdotally apply a similar statistic to experienced hi-fi listeners.

New listeners to hi-fi have also reported hearing things that I don't hear in my current room (as have experienced listeners). Two examples from inexperienced listeners:

1) A 22-year-old girl heard nearly every track as though the sound was coming from the ceiling. There are no speakers on the ceiling.

2) A ~40 year old man with no hi-fi experience perceived Silk Sonic's Leave the Door Open as though the music was all originating from behind him and he was facing the wrong direction.

I've often wondered if those perceptions would persist if they spent enough time listening to 'learn the room'.

 

[tmuikku]

There are many papers besides Toole 1970 research paper. The head movement and reflection does play a part for externalization.

I am just wanting to experience that in a so called dry room. I believe my room with RT sub 0.2s qualifies for that.

Toole made the in head comment in the book no doubt but I just wanted to see more and be objective about it instead of relying on unknown recordings. Can I replicate them? How much dead should be the room? Do I get the same perception with different amplifier or speakers? I just want to be objective.

So besides stereo recording is there any situation where the external sound is heard inside the head?

Hi,
to be able to connect perceived sound to concepts, I think one should simplify and generalize all the details to be able to concentrate on listening and not thinking about it, think about the (written) details.

I'm sure you can figure out a listening experiment where you can study the phenomenon by yourself, listen what you actually perceive. Here is how to simplify:

Any dry sound (like white noise) listened with headphones gives you the inside head sound, what ever that sound is to you. I'm not sure if there is any other way to get sound localize inside the head than this: when sound has no spatial information your brain makes up something and what ever your brain does is easy to test, using dry mono sound with headphones.

Difference between this perception in headphones and same sound played back with a speaker system is mostly the local room reflections giving the sound some spatial cues so your brain doesn't have to make up anything, it can now localize the sound within the room, in front of you as thats usually where strongest and early reflections come from.

Simplified the effect is just Direct / Reflected sound ratio: if you took your headphones and started pulling them out from your ears, there would be some distance, from headphone to ear, where the room sound is loud enough to change the perception compared to when you had the headphones covering your ears and no spatial cues at all.

Sound level in room is function of room acoustics and directivity of the sources, and is relatively uniform in the room no matter where you or the sources locate. However, level of direct sound can be adjusted by speaker listening axis (toe-in) and distance from speaker to ear.

So, to get D/R ratio up so you could perceive your inside head (headphone) sound:
-increase direct sound: bring speakers closer to ears, listen on-axis. Easy and low cost, good way to experiment.
-decrease reflected sound: change room acoustics, especially early reflections that help localization and/or use narrow coverage speakers. Relatively difficult and costly.


In other words, you must somehow understand what is it that you hear, and no one else can help you with that, one must experiment. The above is something how I understand, and hear, this particular topic (what "inside head sound" sounds like to me, how to make it happen, and how it relates to my stereo playback system) and how I would experiment with it. There is no other way to understand it for me, because thats how I connect this particular topic to my perception. You must find your way to do it, understand your perception somehow, or be confused about it

 

[STC]

Any dry sound (like white noise) listened with headphones gives you the inside head sound, what ever that sound is to you. I'm not sure if there is any other way to get sound localize inside the head than this: when sound has no spatial information your brain makes up something and what ever your brain does is easy to test, using dry mono sound with headphones.

This is what troubling me. All headphones sound is inside my head. That’s what science says too.

 

[Bugal1998]

All headphones sound is inside my head. That’s what science says too.

Same for me unless extra processing is applied to the signal. The only exception I've personally experienced is the Sennheiser HD800s.

 

[STC]

I am unfortunate in that binaural is at best a very weak effect for me and often doesn't work at all.

This statement is confusing to me. if you can hear the difference between different stereo configuration why is that you don’t hear any difference between the stereo and binaural recordings comparison in those videos I posted earlier.

 

[Blumlein 88]

This statement is confusing to me. if you can hear the difference between different stereo configuration why is that you don’t hear any difference between the stereo and binaural recordings comparison in those videos I posted earlier.

Don't think I specifically commented on those videos. I do hear a difference in the videos. However I prefer the one that is not binaural.

To elaborate, I do hear some binaural recordings that seem to do what is claimed for binaural, but only weakly. Many just sound odd and still inside my head with headphones, while they just aren't very good over speakers.

 

[STC]

while they just aren't very good over speakers.

Binaural is not meant for speakers unless corrected but still it will miss the bite of stereo or close mic recorded.

 

[Sokel]

Ok,I read nothing so it won't influence me.
First,it was fun!

Voice travels all over the place,has depth,etc.
Listened with both LCD-X and ancient ATH-M2 and the result is the same.
(that was some nice full DR.meters went mad in my interface! )