Soundstage Maps & Microphone Techniques

[STC]

Post in thread 'Properties of speakers that creates a large and precise soundstage'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...rge-and-precise-soundstage.48542/post-1745379

@Bugal1998

I started a new topic to discuss just this particular track perception. The more inputs the better we can understand our system and our perceptions.

Okay, I listened to the track again and I still don’t think you hear them inside the head. The system is with XTC and therefore it should give the 180 degrees perceptive correctly. Although, the narration in the track would have affected our judgment as you are already expecting where the sound should come from but I still don’t get inside the head.

This is the binaural recording of the playback from the 2 speakers only. Please headphones so you get the general impression and tell me exactly where you felt the sound to be inside the head.

[ Note: Eventhough this is a binaural capture of the system playback, there won’t be much externalization and you may feel all the sound is inside the head but just see if you can feel the extreme difference. Thanx]

Microsoft OneDrive

1drv.ms

 

[Blumlein 88]

The big variable here is pinna shape. If you have a shape not close to average, binaural doesn't work well. If you do or if you use mics in your own ears it works very well.

 

[STC]

The big variable here is pinna shape. If you have a shape not close to average, binaural doesn't work well. If you do or if you use mics in your own ears it works very well.

Except for coloration and internalization, binaural should give you a closer perspective as hearing in situ. Maybe, I should have also made another recording with XY mic and Rode so the could be convinced that binaural capture is the closest of what you could convey of the space and sound as heard in situ.

 

[STC]

Except for coloration and internalization, binaural should give you a closer perspective as hearing in situ. Maybe, I should have also made another recording with XY mic and Rode so the could be convinced that binaural capture is the closest of what you could convey of the space and sound as heard in situ.

The difference expected from binaural vs other method or recordings:-

 

[DVDdoug]

Okay, I listened to the track again and I still don’t think you hear them inside the head.

I assume you are talking about headphones? "Inside the head" is very common but different people experience headphones differently. I get a "soundstage" near my forehead, except for hard-panned sounds that I hear coming directly from the lefty or right headphone drivers. Never inside my head.

Headphone soundstage survey

 

[STC]

I assume you are talking about headphones? "Inside the head" is very common but different people experience headphones differently. I get a "soundstage" near my forehead, except for hard-panned sounds that I hear coming directly from the lefty or right headphone drivers. Never inside my head.

Headphone soundstage survey

Thanks. But this about I am not hearing inside the head from the loudspeakers playback. The thread in OP will clarify.

 

[Bugal1998]

Post in thread 'Properties of speakers that creates a large and precise soundstage'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...rge-and-precise-soundstage.48542/post-1745379

@Bugal1998

I started a new topic to discuss just this particular track perception. The more inputs the better we can understand our system and our perceptions.

Okay, I listened to the track again and I still don’t think you hear them inside the head. The system is with XTC and therefore it should give the 180 degrees perceptive correctly. Although, the narration in the track would have affected our judgment as you are already expecting where the sound should come from but I still don’t get inside the head.

This is the binaural recording of the playback from the 2 speakers only. Please headphones so you get the general impression and tell me exactly where you felt the sound to be inside the head.

[ Note: Eventhough this is a binaural capture of the system playback, there won’t be much externalization and you may feel all the sound is inside the head but just see if you can feel the extreme difference. Thanx]

Microsoft OneDrive

1drv.ms

Hey! Good idea to start another thread.

If you note my original post in the other thread, the only track that clearly had in-head localization--and only in an extremely deadened room--is the Chesky track Young Girl's Heart (bolded for clarity... I'm not 'raising my voice' ). The Stereophile track came close(ish), but never actually felt like I had an in ear monitor playing, so there's not much to discuss on that point with the stereophile track.

If you can access the Chesky track from HD tracks or elsewhere, give it a try and let us know what you hear. If your room is very deadened you may be surprised by the sensation.

As I shared in the other thread, in-head localization isn't remotely a contentious topic; it's well documented by Dr. Toole in the circumstances I experienced it, as well as by participants across a wide variety of forums when using narrow directivity speakers.

I'll listen to you're binaural track (thanks for making it!) when I'm near my headphones, but as I said, I don’t expect to hear in-head localization.

 

[Bugal1998]

Context for those not following the referenced thread:

In the thread--not just the specific post--linked by @STC I articulated my experiences with 2-channel playback over loudspeakers in a variety of rooms. The amount of absorption had significant impacts on apparent source width, perception of depth cues, envelopment, and a number of other perceptual effects.

Two perceptions that only occurred an a very deadened room caught @STC's attention:

--In-head localization of sound on Chesky Record's song called "Young Girl's Heart"
--Front-to-back reversal during one key moment during the stereophile track for which I believe @STC created a binaural recording in his space

Both of these effects are well documented in rooms with insufficient reflections or when using speakers with narrow directivity (See Floyd E. Toole Sound Reproduction Third Edition The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of LOUDSPEAKERS AND ROOMS pg. 182, box titled "In-Head Localization" and a variety of academic research papers).

@STC created this thread to explore the topic further.

NOTE: I do not believe these perceptions are desirable, nor do they represent accurate reproduction. I also do not believe front-to-back reversal cues are an inherent playback capability of 2-channel audio in rooms; both instances were perceptual side effects of insufficient room reflections

 

[STC]

Context for those not following the referenced thread:

In the thread--not just the specific post--linked by @STC I articulated my experiences with 2-channel playback over loudspeakers in a variety of rooms. The amount of absorption had significant impacts on apparent source width, perception of depth cues, envelopment, and a number of other perceptual effects.

Two perceptions that only occurred an a very deadened room caught @STC's attention:

--In-head localization of sound on Chesky Record's song called "Young Girl's Heart"
--Front-to-back reversal during one key moment during the stereophile track for which I believe @STC created a binaural recording in his space

Both of these effects are well documented in rooms with insufficient reflections or when using speakers with narrow directivity (See Floyd E. Toole Sound Reproduction Third Edition The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of LOUDSPEAKERS AND ROOMS pg. 182, box titled "In-Head Localization" and a variety of academic research papers).

@STC created this thread to explore the topic further.

NOTE: I do not believe these perceptions are desirable, nor do they represent accurate reproduction. I also do not believe front-to-back reversal cues are an inherent playback capability of 2-channel audio in rooms; both instances were perceptual side effects of insufficient room reflections

I remember reading about Chesky’s record where you mentioned that the PA sound appeared like inside your head. I couldn’t find the thread. Even this track, I didn’t hear inside head experience. Just listened the whole track 3 times.I will try with stereo playback without XTC to see if I could perceive the inside head sound.

Regarding Toole, he mentioned about a single loudspeaker in an anechoic chamber. He also mentioned about in room listening. But no reference to which tracks produced such effect.I am not sure in what context so I will comment when I see the 1970 papers. I would appreciate if someone here could share a copy.

 

[Bugal1998]

I remember reading about Chesky’s record where you mentioned that the PA sound appeared like inside your head. I couldn’t find the thread. Even this track, I didn’t hear inside head experience. Just listened the whole track 3 times.I will try with stereo playback without XTC to see if I could perceive the inside head sound.

Regarding Toole, he mentioned about a single loudspeaker in an anechoic chamber. He also mentioned about in room listening. But no reference to which tracks produced such effect.I am not sure in what context so I will comment when I see the 1970 papers. I would appreciate if someone here could share a copy.

I'm not sure which track you're referrencing when you say 'even this track you listened to three times'; but if you're listening to any stereophile track for inside the head localization, I don't think you'll ever hear it. I never did.

If you're interested in exploring the experience I have shared as much information as I can, you know the track and you know you need a very deadened room. You can also try additional absoption to recreate the effect (thick moving blankets, etc. could be used for low cost temporary absorption).

However, I'm not interested in debating what I did or didn't hear; if your objective is to prove what was or wasn't perceived, this will not be a productive conversation (I'm not saying that's your objective, merely preempting ).

Toole made the following statements about in-head localization:

It "can occur in loudspeaker listening when the direct sound is not supported by the right amount and kind of reflected sound"

"there is a continuum of localization experience from external at a distance through to totally within head"

"it can happen in a normal room with loudspeakers having high directivity, or in any situation where a strong direct sound is heard without appropriate reflections"p

That last statement makes clear that this isn't some uncommon mysterious perception that is limited to a specific track in an unusual test environment. Based on the statement in his book, it's possible it may require an anechoic chamber to happen with a single loudspeaker.

He doesn't state that front-to-back reversals can only happen in an anechoic chamber, though that is the only instance he referenced; however, it was also an aside to the topic of in-head localization.

Lastly, as stated in the other thread, the front-to-back reversal may have only occurred in my case because of a combination of the very deadened space and an anticipatory expectation caused by the narrator saying he was 'at the back of the church' (similar to how you can visually reverse the perceived direction of a ceiling fan's rotation when viewed mostly from the side by convincing yourself that the receding blade is actually coming toward you).

I would note, however, that the reversal only happened with one microphone configuration on the test track, so it was apparently a very fragile--though repeatable--illusion.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Except for coloration and internalization, binaural should give you a closer perspective as hearing in situ. Maybe, I should have also made another recording with XY mic and Rode so the could be convinced that binaural capture is the closest of what you could convey of the space and sound as heard in situ.

I don't know that I can agree. I am unfortunate in that binaural is at best a very weak effect for me and often doesn't work at all. I think for those close enough it will yes be a simulacrum closer to the sound and space in situ for the recording. If done with your own hears it can be spookily real. Maybe someone knows some info about how many this works for and how many it doesn't. Does it work pretty good for 70%? I don't know. I'm hopeful that one day one can scan or photograph their own ears and DSP will be able to make it work for nearly everyone. I miss out on the fun as it stands now.

I've no intention of contentious debate or derailing this thread. Simply pointing out this effect is one you cannot count working for everyone.

I also note that Chesky recordings are not just binaural. They do some other processing to make it work for both speakers and headphones. It isn't clear to my knowledge what that is. Bugs me because I liked his earlier recording work, while his binaural doesn't work for me on headphones and over speakers seems less good than his earlier recordings.

 

[STC]

I'm not sure which track you're referrencing when you say 'even this track you listened to three times'; but if you're listening to any stereophile track for inside the head localization, I don't think you'll ever hear it. I never did.

If you're interested in exploring the experience I have shared as much information as I can, you know the track and you know you need a very deadened room. You can also try additional absoption to recreate the effect (thick moving blankets, etc. could be used for low cost temporary absorption).

However, I'm not interested in debating what I did or didn't hear; if your objective is to prove what was or wasn't perceived, this will not be a productive conversation (I'm not saying that's your objective, merely preempting ).

Toole made the following statements about in-head localization:

It "can occur in loudspeaker listening when the direct sound is not supported by the right amount and kind of reflected sound"

"there is a continuum of localization experience from external at a distance through to totally within head"

"it can happen in a normal room with loudspeakers having high directivity, or in any situation where a strong direct sound is heard without appropriate reflections"p

That last statement makes clear that this isn't some uncommon mysterious perception that is limited to a specific track in an unusual test environment. Based on the statement in his book, it's possible it may require an anechoic chamber to happen with a single loudspeaker.

He doesn't state that front-to-back reversals can only happen in an anechoic chamber, though that is the only instance he referenced; however, it was also an aside to the topic of in-head localization.

Lastly, as stated in the other thread, the front-to-back reversal may have only occurred in my case because of a combination of the very deadened space and an anticipatory expectation caused by the narrator saying he was 'at the back of the church' (similar to how you can visually reverse the perceived direction of a ceiling fan's rotation when viewed mostly from the side by convincing yourself that the receding blade is actually coming toward you).

I would note, however, that the reversal only happened with one microphone configuration on the test track, so it was apparently a very fragile--though repeatable--illusion.

There are many papers besides Toole 1970 research paper. The head movement and reflection does play a part for externalization.

I am just wanting to experience that in a so called dry room. I believe my room with RT sub 0.2s qualifies for that.

Toole made the in head comment in the book no doubt but I just wanted to see more and be objective about it instead of relying on unknown recordings. Can I replicate them? How much dead should be the room? Do I get the same perception with different amplifier or speakers? I just want to be objective.

So besides stereo recording is there any situation where the external sound is heard inside the head?

 

[STC]

I don't know that I can agree. I am unfortunate in that binaural is at best a very weak effect for me and often doesn't work at all. I think for those close enough it will yes be a simulacrum closer to the sound and space in situ for the recording. If done with your own hears it can be spookily real. Maybe someone knows some info about how many this works for and how many it doesn't. Does it work pretty good for 70%? I don't know. I'm hopeful that one day one can scan or photograph their own ears and DSP will be able to make it work for nearly everyone. I miss out on the fun as it stands now.

I've no intention of contentious debate or derailing this thread. Simply pointing out this effect is one you cannot count working for everyone.

I also note that Chesky recordings are not just binaural. They do some other processing to make it work for both speakers and headphones. It isn't clear to my knowledge what that is. Bugs me because I liked his earlier recording work, while his binaural doesn't work for me on headphones and over speakers seems less good than his earlier recordings.

If you don’t perceive a better spatial experience with the YouTube videos above then looks like binaural doesn’t work for you. Binaural also doesn’t work well for me even with my own recordings when I started to overthink about what I am hearing.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you don’t perceive a better spatial experience with the YouTube videos above then looks like binaural doesn’t work for you. Binaural also doesn’t work well for me even with my own recordings when I started to overthink about what I am hearing.

I've used different recording techniques. Crossed figure 8's seem the most accurate spatially. In the right space, it is easy to get too much room sound this way. And how much is right would vary with the deadness of the listening space. OTOH, closely spaced pairs can be better all things considered though not accurate spatially. They create a space which can be convincing and enjoyable over a wider area, but not fully accurate if you know the original space. For many purposes the end listener is well served by this.

I think creating a believable sound is better served by multi-channel. A view I didn't like, but came around to in time. Yet, I despair of MCH ever becoming mainstream. Even good two channel seems much less common these days. I doubt binaural will either, but its a headphone world these days and it has a better chance.

So far there is no holy grail of accuracy for recording. I've come around to the view of making a believable simulacra being a worthy enough goal. For some purposes I love spaced omni's, for others a crossed pair or a crossed pair with omni flankers. And of course you are limiting yourself by adhering to an overly purist approach. Everyone should keep at it though. One day there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

 

[STC]

I've used different recording techniques. Crossed figure 8's seem the most accurate spatially. In the right space, it is easy to get too much room sound this way. And how much is right would vary with the deadness of the listening space. OTOH, closely spaced pairs can be better all things considered though not accurate spatially. They create a space which can be convincing and enjoyable over a wider area, but not fully accurate if you know the original space. For many purposes the end listener is well served by this.

I think creating a believable sound is better served by multi-channel. A view I didn't like, but came around to in time. Yet, I despair of MCH ever becoming mainstream. Even good two channel seems much less common these days. I doubt binaural will either, but its a headphone world these days and it has a better chance.

So far there is no holy grail of accuracy for recording. I've come around to the view of making a believable simulacra being a worthy enough goal. For some purposes I love spaced omni's, for others a crossed pair or a crossed pair with omni flankers. And of course you are limiting yourself by adhering to an overly purist approach. Everyone should keep at it though. One day there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

I still use your recordings to hear pure stereo sound. I no longer rely on the recordings space as that is better achieved via additional speakers and convolution engine.

Speakers are too me just good parrots repeating the original sound. They can never be accurate. It is also producing more than instrument which supposed be across the stage. It is just an art form. making believable or worthy recordings that can convey the actual event is good enough even if it is not the exact replica.

The future is headphones and earbuds. Smyth Realizer is extremely good at externalizing the sound. I can say that for sure because a company used that as a reference to develop XTC. Currently, I don’t think there is any program that actually do real time pinna filtering based on the listeners. My understanding is the have few reference and use the closest that matches your pinna. So I understand why binaural or pinna not working for you. Apple spatial doesn’t work for me either.

The future is bleak for high end. I don’t think we will have time to sit in one spot and enjoy music. A wine, cigar and iPad sitting in the garden or balcony watching the mountains, sunset is more rewarding compared to listening in my main room. Of course, if I could do the same setup in the garden or the beach that would be better.

 

[Bugal1998]

I'm hopeful that one day one can scan or photograph their own ears and DSP will be able to make it work for nearly everyone. I miss out on the fun as it stands now.

I can't speak to the efficacy, but Sony requests photos of your pinna to personalize the binaural effects for at least some of their headphone offerings.

Have you ever tried their solution for headphone atmos and simulated binaural?

 

[Bugal1998]

I remember reading about Chesky’s record where you mentioned that the PA sound appeared like inside your head. I couldn’t find the thread. Even this track, I didn’t hear inside head experience. Just listened the whole track 3 times.I will try with stereo playback without XTC to see if I could perceive the inside head sound.

Regarding Toole, he mentioned about a single loudspeaker in an anechoic chamber. He also mentioned about in room listening. But no reference to which tracks produced such effect.I am not sure in what context so I will comment when I see the 1970 papers. I would appreciate if someone here could share a copy.

I'm not sure if you're having trouble finding the specific track, but if you can access HDtracks in your country, you can find the track which gave the headphone-like effect (Young Girl's Heart) on these albums:

Chesky demo album

Artist's album

 

[NTK]

I'm hopeful that one day one can scan or photograph their own ears and DSP will be able to make it work for nearly everyone. I miss out on the fun as it stands now.

I can't speak to the efficacy, but Sony requests photos of your pinna to personalize the binaural effects for at least some of their headphone offerings.

Have you ever tried their solution for headphone atmos and simulated binaural?

Genelec's Aural ID uses a phone camera scan.

 

[STC]

I'm not sure if you're having trouble finding the specific track, but if you can access HDtracks in your country, you can find the track which gave the headphone-like effect (Young Girl's Heart) on these albums:

Chesky demo album

Artist's album

I have the Chesky album.

 

[Bugal1998]

I have the Chesky album.

Ah, ok... I was having trouble following your post; is that the track you listened to three times?