How do you hear headphone 'soundstage'

[dasdoing]

I drew a diagram of what soundstage feels like for me with headphones...yay me! lol

View attachment 285476

something like that. My head is the little brown circle and the big black circles are 3D balloons of space rather than flat horizontal platters. The way soundstage seems "better" or "worse" for me with different headphones manifests as bigger or smaller black orbs. With really good headphones it feels like the space around my ears is big and there's lots of room between the instruments and sounds. It's never a sense that there's a physical stage in front of me with musicians standing there playing. It's sounds floating in positions around my head in 3 dimensions (although never really far behind) with an impression of spaciousness or compactness of space.

on the other hand the guy in your picture has superb crosstalk elimination lol

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

on the other hand the guy in your picture has superb crosstalk elimination lol

Well, the amount of information contained within those different areas isn't equal. Where they crossover contains a lot of stuff. Then there's stuff to the sides and up and around and some to the back. I never get a strong sense of anything directly behind. But a bit to the sides and behind yes. But the sense of distance increases with my "good" headphones. It feels like I can pinpoint an instrument or sound and locate it in the space wherever it sits, and it feels like the whole space the sound occupies is much larger. And of course it's dependant on the recording to a large degree as well.

 

[Robbo99999]

Well, the amount of information contained within those different areas isn't equal. Where they crossover contains a lot of stuff. Then there's stuff to the sides and up and around and some to the back. I never get a strong sense of anything directly behind. But a bit to the sides and behind yes. But the sense of distance increases with my "good" headphones. It feels like I can pinpoint an instrument or sound and locate it in the space wherever it sits, and it feels like the whole space the sound occupies is much larger. And of course it's dependant on the recording to a large degree as well.

(You might get a strong sense of "behind" on the few maybe somewhat rare tracks that have HRTF baked into the the track and utilise panning of effects around & behind you. Aurora, Forgotton Love is one such track around halfway through. That's just one example.)

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

(You might get a strong sense of "behind" on the few maybe somewhat rare tracks that have HRTF baked into the the track and utilise panning of effects around & behind you. Aurora, Forgotton Love is one such track around halfway through. That's just one example.)

Oh yeah I've got a few of those. And yes, there is a bit of an effect there that can sometimes sound like it moves around behind me. But it's not super-convincing. It ends up sounding more like the movement is a circle mostly in front of me where the sound just rotates closer and then further away. And ftmp, I'm fine with that. I'm not really in it for any big surround-sound experience.

 

[Robbo99999]

Oh yeah I've got a few of those. And yes, there is a bit of an effect there that can sometimes sound like it moves around behind me. But it's not super-convincing. It ends up sounding more like the movement is a circle mostly in front of me where the sound just rotates closer and then further away. And ftmp, I'm fine with that. I'm not really in it for any big surround-sound experience.

It's gonna vary from person to person - those effects vary for me on the same track from listening session to listening session, even with the same headphone - it might be placement on the head or psychological factors, but those tracks I mentioned always have some degree of that 3D panning effect, but it can vary & a lot more unpredictably than 2 speakers in equilateral triangle (speakers are reliable pretty much the same everytime, headphone aren't as much), but it varies with headphone model too, some headphones won't create that 3D effect as much as others. That's my experience of those tracks that have that panning HRTF effect baked in.

 

[Deleted member 58722]

Yesterday I was listening to some music on my headphones, lost in the moment, I forgot I was wearing them, went to turn down the volume on my speakers! Now that’s good spatial stuff right there.

 

[Loomynarty]

After listening to speakers for any amount of time, all headphones sound in my head. Surprisingly, some of my IEMs sound "wider" than my over-ear headphones.

 

[Ahmonge]

On my head, on the axis that runs through my ears, sometimes slightly outside them

 

[Tallulah]

I always feel it in my head. Having the drivers away from my ears (Hifiman Edition XS / Sennheiser HD 800 S) gives me some sense of space and maybe a little bit more width but it's still in my head. Never had 3D image or sound coming from the front, although some videogames sometimes manage to trick my brain a bit (Insurgency: Sandstorm is quite good at this).

 

[olieb]

For me it does not only depend on the headphone but on the recording (technique), too.

Headphones
With most overears (Hifiman HE6se, LCD2closedback, Stax207, AKG501, DT880,....) and all inears the "stage" is more or less in my head. But my head seems kind of Tardis-like, bigger on the inside, as there is this impression of several meters of distance. The "musical space" is quite warped like in an Escher drawing.
HD800s is different, there I get more of an out-of-head experience a bit in front of me (though fuzzy), space is lesser warped.

Recordings
With some recordings (mainly orchestra) it is more like a cloud to the (frontal) sides that in the middle collapses to my head (HD800s fills that frontal hole somewhat).
With others (some opera or often pop music) it is strictly inside the head with some instruments (panned to the sides) pressing in the ears.

 

[jsm]

a song I like to play to test 3D sound capacity of speakers (and now heaphones), it seems that someone was enjoying to play percussions all around the studio mic ^^
https://songwhip.com/jamiroquai/morning-glory-remastered

 

[pablolie]

While I very clearly hear separation when it's a good recording -classical orchestra presentation, for example- it inevitably presents itself in my head. But then psychoacoustics kick in and it can give way to the illusion of there being a stage. The strength of headphones will always be in detail, though.
I also don't think binaural recordings make a difference, honestly.

 

[Robbo99999]

a song I like to play to test 3D sound capacity of speakers (and now heaphones), it seems that someone was enjoying to play percussions all around the studio mic ^^
https://songwhip.com/jamiroquai/morning-glory-remastered

That's a pretty good example of spatial effects being baked into the track. The clearest for me on that track (albeit it happens at other points in the track too) is right at the end from about 5min 36sec on the Youtube version. Spirals through my head as it pans right to left then goes behind head in a circle and then back towards me as it approaches in from the right - that's just with stock HD560s headphones. I've noticed on other tracks that these 3D spatial effects work better on my speakers when sitting at the ideal equilateral triangle listening position, so I think these 3D effects that are baked into various music tracks work better on speakers. I've found different headphones have different sizes of overall soundstage above & beyond just these baked in 3D effects, so it's not just about baked in 3D effects in some tracks.

 

[InfiniteJester]

Normal: a little in front and the sides.
Crossfeed: a lot in front, a little at the sides.
DSPs: 3D image.

 

[solderdude]

Can you expand on which crossfeed (there are many different ones) and which DSP have the right effect for you ?

 

[InfiniteJester]

Can you expand on which crossfeed (there are many different ones) and which DSP have the right effect for you ?

Hello Solderdude,

I've been reading DIY-Audio-Heaven for some time and really enjoy it. However, I was disappointed when I saw the distortion measurements for the Edition XS headphones. It made me wonder if the unit tested might have a problem, because those results stopped me from wanting to buy them.

About your questions, I personally don't always like to adjust the sound to improve the perception that it's coming from outside my head. I think there are some downsides to this, and using crossfeed or other effects isn't always worth it for me.

I use a crossfeed feature which is based on Meier's design and that's part of Foobar2000. Setting it round 15 to 20 in my experience clearly projects the image forward by quite a bit. For me, it is like being able to focus your eyes after watching something so close that you were seeing double. Again, for me, it's excellent for feeling like the music is coming from a live performance. I like this effect with Lucid Planet's "II" (I don't like how the vocals sound so much "in your face" without the crossfeed) and Keneally's "The Universe Will Provide" (because I find too disorienting feeling like I'm in the middle of the "Orkest"), for example.

I've tried many surround sound effects and I usually don't like them. However, for movies, I think Dolby Headphone DH-2 is good. For music, I don't like Dolby solutions because they often make the treble too sharp and fatigue my ears with the artificiality of the generated space, but I sometimes use DTS Headphone: X. This one is not too strong and makes a nice difference for me, especially when listening to things like the 5.1 editions of "Fear of a Blank Planet" or "Red" (anything Steven Wilson has ever done, really). That remixed "Starless" sounds like perfection for me; DTS-H: X also has a very appreciated non-reverb mode.

HeSuVi is a free program that lets you try all these effects easily. It also lets you use any AutoEQ setting you may want. You probably already know that.

Also, not all my headphones give me a good 3D sound effect. From the headphones I have, only the K702 really surrounds me with music. I know that they clearly lack the technicalities of more recent and expensive models, but the ability they have to project an image is unparalleled for me. I have never try the HD800, which I assume would work even better for this purpose.

If anyone has a Samsung, activating Dolby in Automatic mode may be worth a try. Music mode is just awful in my experience. Two songs that work really good for me with that setting + EQ, are the following:

They may be worth a try if you already have easy access.

Thanks for your work, and I look forward to reading your thoughts.

 

[solderdude]

Yeah, XS distortion was a bit weird. One channel was worse than others. Couldn't hear any distortion though. The one from Rtings measured fine (ignoring the weighted part).
It did not appear to me as defective nor did the owner think so.

Personally I am not a big fan of spatializers. They can be impressive. Certainly with movies and speakers close to the TV/monitor but with music the sound gets weird for me.
Xfeed never did it for me but has some fairly good effects with passive Meier alike ones on HD800 gave it some realism but did not project things forward for me.

 

[InfiniteJester]

Yeah, XS distortion was a bit weird. One channel was worse than others. Couldn't hear any distortion though. The one from Rtings measured fine (ignoring the weighted part).
It did not appear to me as defective nor did the owner think so.

Personally I am not a big fan of spatializers. They can be impressive. Certainly with movies and speakers close to the TV/monitor but with music the sound gets weird for me.
Xfeed never did it for me but has some fairly good effects with passive Meier alike ones on HD800 gave it some realism but did not project things forward for me.

Even in Rtings they scored below my beloved K702.

Do you think that I would not detect anything wrong with the XS? I bought the He400se after reading about their stellar low distortion (they haven't arrived yet), as I have never tried planars and I want to introduce myself to that sound. But I know that the He400se probably are not refined enough to provide a good assessment of what planars are capable to do. XS are at the top of Rtings lists in soundstage, where they score #3, and neutral sound, where they score #1. Would you advice me to cancel the order for He400se and go for the XS despite the distortion issues?

Thank you for everything!

 

[solderdude]

Between XS and 400SE there is the Sundara.
This is the one I would pick from these 3.
I owned HE400SE, 400i, EdXX, Sundara and had EdXS for a while.
Sold most of them, still have EdXX (improved that one) and the 400i is still for sale.

 

[Haskil]

Le seul casque qui m'a offert une expérience d'écoute proche de celle avec enceintes est le Jecklin Float...

Une sorte de large cerceau qui soulevait les écouteurs de quelques centimètres des oreilles pour que chacun entende réellement ce que l'autre entendait : on avait ainsi devant nous une scène sonore largement étendue... les disques très bricolés à la console de mixage cela sonne si mal avec des écouteurs traditionnels fermés ou semi-ouverts mais décemment avec des haut-parleurs a été bien reproduit avec le Jecklin Float. et est toujours là mais je ne connais pas ses produits.... J'ai possédé deux modèles Jecklin : un magnifique électrostatique et un autre plus modeste, plutôt bon.

In memoriam: Jürg Jecklin (1938 – 2021), créateur du fameux casque Jecklin Float, n’est plus - AudioVideo2day

Triste nouvelle : Jürg Jecklin, technicien et ingénieur du son inventif, nous a quittés à 83 ans après avoir brièvement souffert d’une maladie chronique. Dans les milieux audiophiles, il est surtout connu pour avoir mis au point et commercialisé le fameux casque qui porte son nom : Jecklin...

av2d.fr

La marque s'appelait Ergo MIT après

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ERGO 2 TWO Casque d'écoute dynamique Stéréo Hi-Fi High-End - Audiophonics

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