How do you hear headphone 'soundstage'

[Robbo99999]

Hello All,

Words like proper always make me humor (smile) a bit. If "proper" was more than a construct it would be defined.

The definition I see above is "not broken". Even if the headphones are intact there is nothing about them that will effect time or space information.

A reminder from the OP, Just plain headphones ... without any processing/plug-ins like crossfeed, stereo enhancers and 3D emulators.


An added, maybe related comment:

I do not always prefer prefer the Harman Curve of the Expanse type headphones.

Some times I mix it up and enjoy the flat frequency response of LCD2 headphones.

Thanks DT

Of course if you have channel imbalance it will effect panning of sounds between left & right. It would be harder to distinguish subtle differences in placement between left & right if the headphones are skewed to one side in their channel balance. I would imagine that localised differences in frequency response, say for example a mismatch at a range in the region of 2kHz, but balanced elsewhere in the frequency could have some effects too, probably more subtle effects on the imaging. Channel mismatch will effect "space information" that you mention, of course it will, the image would be unbalanced & skewed.

 

[Snarfie]

Compared to a good setup speaker system i don't hear any soundstage with headphones. I hear detailed sound more than with speakers.

 

[sonitus mirus]

Compared to a good setup speaker system i don't hear any soundstage with headphones. I hear detailed sound more than with speakers.

That is generally how it works for me, but I call it 'headstage' with headphones. For me, it is usually more about the recording than the transducers. Spatial cues in binaural recordings can easily appear to come from in front, behind, above, or below within the illusion. It generally works the same if the headphone speakers are well matched and either the isolation is good or the environment is quiet. No need for anything expensive.

 

[DualTriode]

Of course if you have channel imbalance it will effect panning of sounds between left & right. It would be harder to distinguish subtle differences in placement between left & right if the headphones are skewed to one side in their channel balance. I would imagine that localised differences in frequency response, say for example a mismatch at a range in the region of 2kHz, but balanced elsewhere in the frequency could have some effects too, probably more subtle effects on the imaging. Channel mismatch will effect "space information" that you mention, of course it will, the image would be unbalanced & skewed.

So agreed, If headphones are not broken, the only time space information that they can deliver is the program material.

 

[Oso Polar]

So agreed, If headphones are not broken, the only time space information that they can deliver is the program material.

This is obviously not true because different headphones create different soundstage from the same recording, sometimes very different, for example, the already mentioned HD600 vs HD800s. Unless, of course, from your point of view all headphones are broken.

 

[sonitus mirus]

This is obviously not true because different headphones create different soundstage from the same recording, sometimes very different, for example, the already mentioned HD600 vs HD800s. Unless, of course, from your point of view all headphones are broken.

It is not obvious because the soundstage has not been defined with regard to headphones. Which measurements capture this aspect?

 

[Snarfie]

That is generally how it works for me, but I call it 'headstage' with headphones. For me, it is usually more about the recording than the transducers. Spatial cues in binaural recordings can easily appear to come from in front, behind, above, or below within the illusion. It generally works the same if the headphone speakers are well matched and either the isolation is good or the environment is quiet. No need for anything expensive.

Will remember "headstage". Listening to music is done by me 90% speakers 10% headphone.

More important both are DSP corrected where the speakers are also phase/time alignt build.
If not corrected than i got considerably less soundstage because of my horrible room acoustics. Regarding my Sony WH1000 serie NC headphone the same thing regarding using DSP correction voices instrument are way mors precise. I'm using Wavelet a really nice cost free correction app that let your headphone seamingly control the recuierd amount of correction with a slider.

 

[Keith_W]

I heard an interesting theory put forth by a guy who was explaining why a polarity flip on one loudspeaker makes the sound from both appear like it's coming from inside your head. He said that our brain relies on ITD, ILD, and HRTF modification + turning the head for sound localisation. If you flip the polarity of one speaker, you mess up the ITD (it is massively outside the normal psychoacoustic time threshold). The brain gets confused, and defaults to the "sound inside the head" localisation. He said that the same happens with headphones, in this case when you turn your head the HRTF does not change. This is why the Smyth Realiser which has head tracking and real-time modification of the FR (using a filter derived from binaural mics to account for HRTF) is able to sound so realistic.

Opinions?

 

[audiofooled]

I heard an interesting theory put forth by a guy who was explaining why a polarity flip on one loudspeaker makes the sound from both appear like it's coming from inside your head. He said that our brain relies on ITD, ILD, and HRTF modification + turning the head for sound localisation. If you flip the polarity of one speaker, you mess up the ITD (it is massively outside the normal psychoacoustic time threshold). The brain gets confused, and defaults to the "sound inside the head" localisation. He said that the same happens with headphones, in this case when you turn your head the HRTF does not change. This is why the Smyth Realiser which has head tracking and real-time modification of the FR (using a filter derived from binaural mics to account for HRTF) is able to sound so realistic.

Opinions?

IME it mostly depends on duration, frequency and the envelope of signals (no surprise here). On my loudspeaker system, signals with flat envelope (i.e. sinewaves) ranging from 700Hz up to (my) audible band end up localized completely inside my head, right in the middle (mono signal, no polarity flip, just careful alignment). And it does not matter if I turn my head.

However, signals with flipped (and not flat) envelope between the channels are localized with varying degrees of proximity, just never inside the head. They usually contain some ILD and ITD information as well, also I do not listen in an anechoic environment, so reflections will cause image shifts, for the better. Transients are completely different story, normally being very short in duration and, more often than not, very complex signals (real music). This creates an illusion of sound stage, sometimes holographic, depending on the recording.

Headphones, on the other hand, never create anything out of the ordinary, just plain and simple "inside the head", except for handful of processed "3d illusions".

FYI I would highly recommend this (no special introduction required) :

 

[DualTriode]

IME it mostly depends on duration, frequency and the envelope of signals (no surprise here). On my loudspeaker system, signals with flat envelope (i.e. sinewaves) ranging from 700Hz up to (my) audible band end up localized completely inside my head, right in the middle (mono signal, no polarity flip, just careful alignment). And it does not matter if I turn my head.

However, signals with flipped (and not flat) envelope between the channels are localized with varying degrees of proximity, just never inside the head. They usually contain some ILD and ITD information as well, also I do not listen in an anechoic environment, so reflections will cause image shifts, for the better. Transients are completely different story, normally being very short in duration and, more often than not, very complex signals (real music). This creates an illusion of sound stage, sometimes holographic, depending on the recording.

Headphones, on the other hand, never create anything out of the ordinary, just plain and simple "inside the head", except for handful of processed "3d illusions".

FYI I would highly recommend this (no special introduction required) :

Hello All,

I listened to the JJ tape, there were as I counted 5 references to headphones summarized like this, in the absence of external clues the stereo phantom image is located internalized in the center of your head just like with headphones.

Thanks DT

 

[restorer-john]

I heard an interesting theory put forth by a guy who was explaining why a polarity flip on one loudspeaker makes the sound from both appear like it's coming from inside your head. He said that our brain relies on ITD, ILD, and HRTF modification + turning the head for sound localisation. If you flip the polarity of one speaker, you mess up the ITD (it is massively outside the normal psychoacoustic time threshold). The brain gets confused, and defaults to the "sound inside the head" localisation. He said that the same happens with headphones, in this case when you turn your head the HRTF does not change. This is why the Smyth Realiser which has head tracking and real-time modification of the FR (using a filter derived from binaural mics to account for HRTF) is able to sound so realistic.

Opinions?

Totally the opposite for me. But perhaps it's from spending so much time around HiFi gear in showrooms, retailers and shop fitouts etc. I can walk past a retailer in a shopping centre full of noise and pick an out of phase/polarity ceiling speaker playing music inside their shop, all from outside the store.

The sound is 'outside the head' for me when you have one or more in an array out of polarity.

 

[solderdude]

For speakers being out of phase I can easily hear it. Mostly the bass disappearing when standing right between the speakers and some weird phasing when you move from L to R for instance.
I have f'ed up with modifications of headphones or incorrectly re-assembled a headphone on occasion where one driver was accidentally in reverse polarity and the effect is very different from speakers. This is because with speakers sound mixes and kind of nulls the lower frequencies.
With headphones, nothing nulls as both ears get the full info just in reverse polarity.
I can hear something is 'off' but it is not the usual 'tell' you get with speakers as there is no acoustical nulling. It is more a 'confusing' sound and instruments can still be picked in the right 'position' but is somewhat 'strange'.

 

[herr.jemine]

right in the sweet spot of a stereo triangle with halfway decent speakers, I hear everything nicely staggered and wide around my head

It's similar with some headphones, the best spatial resolution I've had so far was with my AKG K712Pro, followed by the Sundaras, I haven't had better over-ears yet, my HD6xx don't do so well - with the HD6xx it's more in the head and close to the head but not really around the head - I use the Sennheiser noticeably rarely

With IEMs, I've had a wide stage around the head with the Hidizs MP145 - but not as holographic as with the AKG over-ears, with other IEMs the stage feels like it's only in the head! A strange feeling in direct comparison

 

[solderdude]

Yep, the HD6** are all 'narrow' in 'headstage'.

 

[Multicore]

I voted for the first option because that's nearly always what I experience but I had a very surprising experience recently.

I had been recording myself playing guitar with a Line CM4 SDCs in 60° X-Y pair (an activity, as discussed here, that I'm not used to at all and looks like this). When I went to review the recording I used headphones because the computer monitors are in the same room as the microphones and I don't like listening to the same room modes applied twice!

Reviewing the recording my phone made a notification sound some distance behind me. But it was in front of me. The sound was on the recording. I was very disoriented because the phone had been in front of me during the recording too. And then I realized it had been on the desk in front of me but behind the mics during the recording. It was a really surprising thing. The sound was so convincingly from a phone a couple of meters behind me.

 

[Oldson]

as i fall in to the 1st category, would it be totally stupid idea to just stick to closed back headphones going forward.
that way i will at least benefit from some isolation.

 

[sonitus mirus]

as i fall in to the 1st category, would it be totally stupid idea to just stick to closed back headphones going forward.
that way i will at least benefit from some isolation.

That is the main reason I ever wear headphones. That, and I wouldn't want anyone to hear me playing ABBA.

 

[majingotan]

interesting impressions... which of the above headphones did you enjoy the most?

Revisiting Expanse and Stealth a few months, I ultimately preferred the Stealth since the treble has a bit more emphasized shimmer than the Expanse which has a treble roll off perceived as coming from afar. These days, I use the Hifiman Susvara OG as it's a very pleasing sounding headphone that suits my preferred tonality (more bloom in the lower mids all the way to the treble due to more distortion at those ranges). With DCA Stealth, it's more accurate to the source file and as such you really hear everything in the mix without any special seasoning that screams "artificial" to your subjective perception while Susvara is a "pleasingly artificial" sound signature. On a perspective of somebody that likes the pleasing distortion, Stealth will come off as "dry" sounding, but in reality, that's how the mix is supposed to sound like

 

[Auditory Cortex]

I also have found that after I've done a session of Virtual 7.1 Surround fps gaming (where I use sound heavily to pinpoint 3D directional positions of enemies) that afterwards I'm more sensitive in detecting changes in the image & soundstage created by headphones when listening to music in headphones

Something similar happened to me. In my case I spent many hours at mixing in Dolby Atmos with my IEM earphones using the binaural decoding, after a long mixing session of it I started listening to normal stereo music and I immediately heard the change of perception in the soundstage. Before, I used to hear the stereo image with IEM headphones as inside my head and straight Left-Middle-Right, but after this Binaural session it changed to be as a 2D picture that is right in front of me, a picture that is divided in the middle so an "infinite" 2D picture that has an "infinite" number of little speakers are right in front of my Left ear, and the same with the Right channel, that's how it sounds when my brain is accustomed to a 3D Binaural sound, it was very interesting for me and was really wondering if anyone else have heard it like this, and from your poll options I can see that I am not the only one that has perceived this 2D picture. I made a little image showing how I perceived that time

I am sure there is a scientific an psychoacoustic explanation of this, but I am guessing that my brain was starting to get the 3D cues and details of dolby atmos binaural, so when I heard the stereo music after that then all those 3D cues were gone and my brain was interpreting the sound as if I was still in the binaural session but with sounds that are just in front of my ears, and because there is also the absence of "bleed" or sound crossover (a sound sounding in both ears but differently) then I perceived that there is a hidden/ghost wall that is right in my nose and that is separating these sounds, very probably because that's the only "logical" explanation my brain has come to using all my lifetime experiences.

td:lr:
Before hearing in Dolby Atmos binaural: 1st poll option "In my head (Left, Right and Between)"
After hearing DAB for hours: 5th option "a 2D image clearly in front of me"

 

[Robbo99999]

Something similar happened to me. In my case I spent many hours at mixing in Dolby Atmos with my IEM earphones using the binaural decoding, after a long mixing session of it I started listening to normal stereo music and I immediately heard the change of perception in the soundstage. Before, I used to hear the stereo image with IEM headphones as inside my head and straight Left-Middle-Right, but after this Binaural session it changed to be as a 2D picture that is right in front of me, a picture that is divided in the middle so an "infinite" 2D picture that has an "infinite" number of little speakers are right in front of my Left ear, and the same with the Right channel, that's how it sounds when my brain is accustomed to a 3D Binaural sound, it was very interesting for me and was really wondering if anyone else have heard it like this, and from your poll options I can see that I am not the only one that has perceived this 2D picture. I made a little image showing how I perceived that time
View attachment 381415
I am sure there is a scientific an psychoacoustic explanation of this, but I am guessing that my brain was starting to get the 3D cues and details of dolby atmos binaural, so when I heard the stereo music after that then all those 3D cues were gone and my brain was interpreting the sound as if I was still in the binaural session but with sounds that are just in front of my ears, and because there is also the absence of "bleed" or sound crossover (a sound sounding in both ears but differently) then I perceived that there is a hidden/ghost wall that is right in my nose and that is separating these sounds, very probably because that's the only "logical" explanation that my brain has come to using all my lifetime experiences.

Hi, I gave you a Like eventhough I don't totally understand every aspect that you're describing, but I think that "soundstage" in headphones is very brain related, and "brain training" related inasmuch as your prior experience with wearing headphones influences what you perceive, and it does seem like we both experienced that prolonged use of Virtualised Speakers in headphones changed temporarily (or semi permanently) our ability to positively sense a better/greater soundstage when music listening using just normal stereo in headphones.