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High-resolution Speaker Frequency Response & Distortion Measurements and Why We Need Them (video)

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amirm

amirm

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That's the key thing, and it's hard to see how or when the cost of such technology would become more affordable. The world changes, though - so to speak -and there is much of tthat happening now.
Having to build the robotic system is a large barrier to competition to Klippel. We are talking near 300 pounds of hardware there alone. Even if someone else did try to compete, the price likely will be high.
 

rofo

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What about the TEF (time energy frequency) analysis dating back to the 1980's. The analyzer produces a frequency sweep and then a tracking filter follows the frequency delayed in time by the distance of the microphone from the DUT (device under test). The method is also know as Time Delayed spectrometry invented by Richard Heyser. It was used by many manufactures to measure loudspeakers.
 

PeteL

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The electronics guys have been making and selling that gear for years without proper measurements as well. Yet I keep hearing left and right that they are now buying $30,000 Audio Precision analyzers to make sure they can make proper measurements. Lest they want us to be the first who does and sees problems.
Define "proper". There are tons of measuring equipments that are far more useful than an AP Analyser for designing audio equipment. An AP analyser don't tell you any problems in your design, it just shows the end result which is of course important, but that's not what you use to create electronics. That said it is of course almost mandatory to have a way to measure performance, AP or else, but wonder who are these "Electronic guys". I have never met any but of course I don't know everybody in the industry.
 
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ROOSKIE

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...hmmm...People ask for things to be included in speaker reviews...

If I consider buying some speakers/drivers, I will check the Klippel user list to find out if the manufacturer uses Klippel. If not, no buy.
.....It is 2022 now.
Well to be fair for speakers anechoic chambers are still legit and some designers seem able to work with limited equipment very well like Philharmonic audio / Dennis.
For drivers it sure seems like Klipple ought to be used.
 

kongwee

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Define "proper". There are tons of measuring equipments that are fare more useful than an AP Analyser for designing audio equipment. An AP analyser don't tell you any problems in your design, it just shows the end result which is of course important, but that's not what you use to create electronics. That said it is of course almost mandatory to have a way to measure performance, AP or else, but wonder who are these "Electronic guys". I have never met any but of course I don't know everybody in the industry.
If you look at the spec of AP on measurement side, there is a lot more sensitive scope that cost a fraction of it's price. Brand like FLUKE, proven in my country military industry use. I had use it for maintenance and fault diagnose. I thought it was already expensive. Recently I compare spec wth AP. Wow, it is not the same level. However AP software is already easy to zoom on audio spec on end/finish product in this aspect.
 

iMickey503

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Having to build the robotic system is a large barrier to competition to Klippel. We are talking near 300 pounds of hardware there alone. Even if someone else did try to compete, the price likely will be high.
I know just the guy!
C46YH1qd_400x400.jpeg
:)

"Today on DIY Perks...."
 

ThoFi

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I do think measurements of the components are interesting.
But the room acoustics has so much more impact to these measurement results/ the frequency response.
So I do not understand why it makes sense to look and discuss every micro detail of the single components.
A very little few dBs fluctuation of the components vs far more dBs of the room….
 
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amirm

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Define "proper". There are tons of measuring equipments that are far more useful than an AP Analyser for designing audio equipment.
Huh? Who was talking about "useful?" Talking about high-performance measurement that can quantify noise and distortion in the product.
 
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amirm

amirm

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If you look at the spec of AP on measurement side, there is a lot more sensitive scope that cost a fraction of it's price.
I suggest you learn about these things before making comments. AP has dual 24-bit converters. Your cheap scope has an 8 bit ADC. Fancier ones go up to 12 bits. 16 bit is specified in some but good luck getting down to the noise floor of the AP.
 

DualTriode

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Hello @miirm and All,

A bit of information about room noise and noise levels that may interfere with distortion measurements. @amirm as you said in the video, mechanical resonances can and do show in in the measurements and are included in the quantification of harmonic distortion.

Fan noise is an example of noise, it is not random room noise that can be averaged out to lower the noise floor. Fans have dominate noise bands that persist even with averaging. The typical dominate fan noise frequency is = fan RPM times the number of fan blades divided by 60 seconds / min, plus plus a family of other easily measurable frequencies. Fan noise frequencies can easily be within 40dB of the test frequencies at the test microphone location(s). The fan frequencies car be easily within 0.5% to 0.75% and included in the software harmonic distortion calculations.

That means that fan noise can show up as harmonic distortion in the plots.

Thanks DT

On my bench instrument cooling fans are the worst.
 

PeteL

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Huh? Who was talking about "useful?" Talking about high-performance measurement that can quantify noise and distortion in the product.
OK, that was a sidebar, but the vast majority audio manufacturers have been quantifying noise and distortion for many decades.
 

Sokel

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They don’t go loud and they don’t go deep, but for classical and jazz they beat anything for pure musical pleasure.
Classical needs both deep and loud,there are performances way more complex than any other kind of music.
 

Spkrdctr

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I have to say that Amir has put out yet another fantastic video. I especially like that it is geared towards non-engineers. This allows all of the "regular" people to come here and learn by watching his videos. So in essence, it takes what people would think is common sense in audio and shows that actually the common sense is wrong and Amir shows how and why it is wrong with great non-engineering talks. For me, and I'm sure many other members it makes it so much easier to point new members who only know snake oil marketing lines and YouTube subjectivist claptrap to Amir's videos for some easy learning. Trying to go from no knowledge in audio other than marketing mumbo jumbo to actually talking about audio is too big of a step in a forum setting. You would have to write an audio book to bring the newbie up to speed. Amir's videos do it quickly and easily. I like to think of it as "Amir's snake oil killing videos". I urge all members to donate at least $25 to Amir as what he offers is a HUGE amount of education for free. That $25 donation just says "Thank You" to Amir and helps him continue his teaching!
 

gnarly

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Sorry, I don't have a text version of this so you have to suffer through the video. :) You can speed it up and get through it in 20 minutes.
No suffering at all :) .... thanks for the video! I've been watching a lot o them lately.

Using higher resolution to spot resonances makes good sense to me.
I think combining that with looking for kinks/abruptions in an impedance sweep, is going to become part of my standard DIY speaker process from now on.
To date, i've relied more on slow manual sine sweeps indoors first, then outdoors, and simply listening. (By slow, I mean manually dialing up the frequency Hz by Hz).
Unexpected rattles and hollering can really jump out sometimes lol.

Do you find some resonances to be SPL dependent? That they don't appear until a certain SPL is reached?
I get that sometimes.

Must say, I'm not convinced about higher resolution being valid for EQ work.
I spend a lot of time measuring DIY speakers in the backyard on a spinorama, trying to get polars as smooth as possible.
It's most often a case of a rob Peter to pay Paul situation, when I try to EQ, the ripple out of any particular spatial measurement too finely. Even for spatial average.s
The one EQed measurement/average will improve, but most often causes a headache elsewhere.
1/12th is as fine as i've made work with the best behaved drivers, and that's pushing it, ime. My 2c.
 

gnarly

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QUADFIG6.jpg

From the Quad ESL-63 courtesy of Stereophile. 1 khz squarewave microphone capture.

Nice impulse result too.
QUADFIG4.jpg

942 hz squarewave from a DIY horn speaker by B. Walso (of Liberty software that wrote Diffmaker).
squarewwave.jpg

Yep, acoustic square waves are totally possible in even just a quasi-anechoic environment (aka backyard lol) ..

Here's a few I captured of a DIY PA box, made to be crossed to a sub at 100Hz.


square wave set.jpg
 

PeteL

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Yep, acoustic square waves are totally possible in even just a quasi-anechoic environment (aka backyard lol) ..

Here's a few I captured of a DIY PA box, made to be crossed to a sub at 100Hz.


View attachment 216191
My question is, how do you connect a microphone to a Rigol scope? What's the signal path?
 

PeteL

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With probes? :D
What’s the mystery?
Pic shows 50mV/div.
Just Curious how that's all. if it's, trough a preamp, most measurments microphones I know require phantom power, and most Scopes I know don't take a balance signal. what do you mean by with Probe? You Probe pin 2 and bring everything else to ground? and you provide the power how? I just haven't used typical oscilloscopes with a microphone in the past that's all. If I take measurments I go trough an ADC with software UI.
 
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dc655321

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Just Curious how that's all. if it's, trough a preamp, most measurments microphones I know require phantom power, and most Scopes I know don't take a balance signal. what do you mean by with Probe? You Probe pin 2 and bring everything else to ground? and you provide the power how? I just haven't used typical oscilloscopes with a microphone in the past that's all. I take measurments if I have to trough an ADC with software UI.

A simple answer may not apply here, as it depends on the microphone type and scope specs. 10x probes and AC coupling could help though.
 

DWI

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The electronics guys have been making and selling that gear for years without proper measurements as well. Yet I keep hearing left and right that they are now buying $30,000 Audio Precision analyzers to make sure they can make proper measurements. Lest they want us to be the first who does and sees problems.

Just as well, I expect speaker manufacturers, large and small, to buy Klippel NFS. If they already have the baseline Klippel hardware and don't don't need all the bells and whistles, an NFS add-on can be $50K or less. We have seen the beginning of this trend and I am confident it will grow rapidly with time. The value proposition is unique and quite high.
Are you suggesting manufacturers don’t test their own products? The basis of reviews (called technical reports way back when) I've read over 40+ years were that manufacturers publish their specifications and the reviewer checks them. Attached is part of a review from 1968 of Quad’s first solid state pre/power amplifiers, the famous 33/303. The reviewer explains that the performance was so good he had to buy better test equipment costing £400 ($1,120), the equivalent of $23,000 today.
IMG_0153.jpg
That review was 2 pages of data and charts, the listening test was 2 sentences, confirming no audible distortion. For me, that's the basic requirement.
IMG_0154.jpg


I've used several Quad amplifiers (909S, 909M, QMP) and have never been concerned with noise and distortion, because it was a problem solved over 50 yers ago, as illustrated by the 33/303 measurements. They made better amplifiers over the years, but THD+ N was a done deal and never an issue.

Lots of companies in the UK have bespoke test equipment, designed by the likes of Miller Audio Research, or dCS who design their own and test every unit they make for about 3 days. There are of course lots of brands, Audio Precision being just one, with other cheaper options.

The biggest change in the last 3few decades has probably been the use of OEM sub-systems, like CD transports and more recently Class D units from the likes of B&O and Hypex, they are a known quantity, you put them in a box, wire them up and they all basically measure the same. ASR has proven this. No analyser required.

As far as cost, look at two French companies. @davidminard 's Octavio, who make a €200 multi-channel streamer, financed by €10,000 of crowdfunding. Do they need, or could they afford a €30,000 test machine? I doubt it.

Then you have Devialet, with over €100million of funding, and production and QC technology that makes the AP55 look like a toy. They can manufacture in France because they can afford manufacturing and QC technology that is almost fully automated.

I would expect any business considering significant capital investment in any equipment to ask three questions:
1. What additional sales/gross profit will it generate?
2. What costs savings will result?
3. Can we afford it?

This could equally apply to Octavio looking to spend €1,000 on an analyser, someone looking at €100,000 for Klippel or Devialet looking at €1million for a new board making system.

@davidminard makes the point that what his company does is add value to existing hardware with new software and a nice package, rather than do anything relevant to measurable performance of the OEM hardware.

Likewise, I would happily buy a NAD M33 (recommended there) simply because the Purifi Eigentact amplifier and ESS Sabre DAC are known quantities.

Another common and much more cost-effective option is to buy in testing when needed, common with more expensive facilities like anechoic chambers. Reminds me of a friend's daughter, a very successful fashion photographer, who has never bought her professional camera equipment. She always used to rent it and now Canon give it to her. The main benefit of renting is not owning redundant equipment. Better pay $200 per external test than $30,000 for the test equipment?

I have no doubt there are many different ways of measuring and testing audio equipment, often determined by financial constraints or use of OEM systems. 've been around long enough to appreciate there is more than one way to crack a nut, usually many equally effective ways.
 
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