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Hi-fi Ethernet cable - does it help with network streamer?

audio_tony

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I get what you’re saying here - network activity can create noise. But I see two issues with your description here, and both are very important for answering the question you’re addressing.

One is jitter. My understanding is that network data gets reclocked at the destination. So you either get audible dropouts and clicks/ticks from a defective, unreliable connection, or you get zero audible impact - there’s nothing in between those two extremes when it comes to jitter over the transmission medium.

The other is your final sentence. You wish you had a quieter PSU if the noise injected into the data stream by your current PSU actually makes its way out of the DAC. And as noted by several folks above - and demonstrated by tests run here by Amir and by many others online, this is not a problem with almost any DAC.
My server uses a fairly high spec Intel network card with a large heatsink - I never see any noise created by network activity, even when I run network stress tests.

If there were audible dropouts, there would be some serious packet loss.
On a LAN, packet loss usually only occurs when there is a media fault, e.g. failing switch, damaged cable or a poor connection.
However packet loss can occur if the network is very heavily loaded, a scenario which is extremely rare (non existent) in a home LAN.
At a company I used to work for, there were 1500 users connected via a multitude of switches and a very busy network, to our central comms. room.
We used to stream music from a server in the comms. room via fibre uplinks to switches, which then connected via Ethernet to various desktops.
We never experienced dropouts.
Audio is not treated any differently to 'ordinary' data - when audio is sent across a network, it is data.

The operating system network stack (Google the 'OSI' model) handles network I/O - it doesn't care (or even differentiate between) what it's passing.

With regard to jitter (this seems to be the last bastion of "believers" as everything else has been comprehensively debunked).

Networks simply don't corrupt data or contribute jitter.

A quick search for Ethernet clock threw up this comment here : https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/how-does-ethernet-get-its-clock.2094902/

Quoted below:

Well you could think the transmitter and receiver would have their own internal clocks and just sample based on that? Now that wouldn't work as they could never be guaranteed to be synchronized. Thankfully Ethernet frames have a Frame Checksum Sequence (FCS) which is nothing more than a bitwise hash of the entire frame, that way the receiver knows if the frame has been modified. The receiver runs the same hash on the entire frame, if the FCS is good it knows the frame is intact. If not, it's tossed and considered "bad". This is why "the network" can NEVER corrupt data, there is built in error checking.

So about that clock...on the front end of every single ethernet frame is what's called the Preamble. It's a sequence 64 bits of ones and zeros (high/low voltage) in a specific pattern that is allows the receiver to synchronize it's clock for this specific frame. 10101011110000101100, something like that I forget the exact sequence but you get the idea.

So the preamble is what sets the receivers clock, and every single ethernet frame includes these 64 bits. When folks talk about normal ethernet frame size of 1514 bytes this does NOT include the preamble. This is why you can never achieve 100% utilization on ethernet. The preamble is always there and is not part of the frame, at best using maximum frame sizes you can only get 98.5 or so percent, it's even worse if the frame size is smaller because the preamble then becomes a larger percentage of the frame in question.

In summary:
Audiophile Ethernet cables make no difference to the sound.
Audiophile switches make no difference to the sound.
Audiophile routers make no difference to the sound.

To an Ethernet network, data is data, bits are bits.

I believe @amirm has comprehensively debunked all this on this very forum anyway....
 
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Jinjuku

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How do you set up a 1GB buffer in JRiver? I had a look at my settings, and I only see "Memory Playback" where I can load the entire file into memory. Is it the same?

(I am using JRMC 31).

Use the Load File to Memory setting. It will allow up to 1GB of allocation if you have it available.
 

Jinjuku

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A quick search for Ethernet clock

I got into over at aud10ph1lestyle about their gross misunderstanding about how 802.3 and 802.11 works and provided a few papers on clock domain boundaries and what problems it solves. Complete idiots buying modded Ethernet cards and switches with more higher precision crystals.
 
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antcollinet

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Jinjuku

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I prefer a cable over wifi.

What's hifi Ethernet?

If the RF environment is working correctly the application layer has zero idea nor care how the transport layer is accomplished. Polk audio forums has the same blind spots. I did a 240GB capture of audio playback and posted the results. 4 re-transmitted for a whopping 6kb and 0 loss and it was totally lost on them.
 

ahofer

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It is 100% identical to all the other ethernet, but costs 100x to 1000x more.
And after 226 posts, this has always been the answer to the question.
 

wwenze

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What about hifi wife?

OIG.oJuPEOTkvyQY0e8Kdivn
 

antcollinet

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They are trying to reduce noise on the line which might contaminate the destination streamer/Dac, In theory this could then impact the analogue audio section.
Fit the cheapest cables you can find.

Can you hear noise? In the silent parts between tracks? No? You're Golden.

If you can, then you need to work out how noise is getting into the dac even though the ethernet cables are all transformer coupled (galvanically isolated). You'll probably find it is somewhere other than the ethernet.

:cool:


EDIT - Ive no idea how this thread got put in front of me since the previous post is 3 months old. Sorry for the necromancy.
 
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Human Bass

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I think there's some crosstalk occurring in this thread now. I propose some clarity may be required.
For network cables there are speed variants (CAT 3, CAT5, CAT5e, CAT6 etc) and there are also shielding variants applied universally to those individual speed variant cables.
SO 'CAT 5e S/STP' 'CAT6 FTP' for example.

My interest lies predominantly in quantifying which type (let's say in any case shield type AND speed type for arguments sake) could be the optimal cable applied to an audio data transfer application.
Are we all on the same page?
Well, the best cable for audio data would be the best one for any kind of data. Uncompresed CD is 1.5 megabit per second. 50x that is still well below 100mb.

If you are worried but outside noise, get one with good shielding and that's it.
 

antcollinet

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My brother (networking specialist) turned me on to these several years back, they are all i use now.

Since they are so thin you can slide them in under baseboards and completely hide them.
You don't want to use STP (Shielded) cables since they can bypass the transformers and propagate ground loops. Unless you have specific EMC problems that sheilding will mitigate. This will be very rare.
 

Sal1950

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DLS79

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You don't want to use STP (Shielded) cables since they can bypass the transformers and propagate ground loops. Unless you have specific EMC problems that sheilding will mitigate. This will be very rare.


I'm not sure why it pulled that particular text, but if if you click the link (its an index page) you will see they have shielded and un-shielded.
 

kevin1969

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If the RF environment is working correctly the application layer has zero idea nor care how the transport layer is accomplished. Polk audio forums has the same blind spots. I did a 240GB capture of audio playback and posted the results. 4 re-transmitted for a whopping 6kb and 0 loss and it was totally lost on them.
Yup exactly. As long as TCP can recover within the music buffering time, you'll never notice any loss.
 
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