[HELP] I can't hear difference between SS and tube amp using HD800

[canthearathing]

Hi everyone, I recently created the following setup to A/B test some of my headphone amps and am quite shocked, humbled, and confused by my result. Could you please share your thoughts and if this is normal? I'm seriously questioning my hearing abilities now and wonder if my hearing is somehow damaged.

Some background about myself:

• I am a 30-year old male
• I have owned my gears for more than 3 years, so I am familiar with their sounds (or so I thought)
• I don't have "golden ears" but I can pass the ABX High Fidelity test (http://abx.digitalfeed.net/) ~70% of the time.

The gears I put to test:

• Headphones
  • Sennheiser HD800
  • ZMF Atticus
• DAC
  • HRT Music Streamer II+
• Amps
  • Schiit Asgard 3
  • Bottlehead Crack with Speedball upgrade

My A/B testing setup:

Procedures:

1. Volume match both amps playing pink noise and measuring the volume using a SPL meter. The volume was set at around 79DB. I realize using a SPL meter is not the most scientific approach to volume matching, but this seemed good enough for my purposes--and it was since I couldn't tell any difference.
2. Wear the headphones, close my eyes, and play several different songs (a mix of .FLAC on Foobar and songs streamed from Google Play Music)
3. Have a friend randomly switch between A/B and ask me to write down my guess as to which amp is playing.

Expectation:

• I expected Bottlehead Crack to produce richer and more lush midtones. I expected it to sound warmer as many online reviewers and even myself had believed before today's test. I expected it to be slower in response and sound muddy when playing electronic music. On more intimate tracks such as "Writers in the Dark" by Lorde, I was certain I could hear the fleeting breath and voice to last a split second longer on my tube amp than they did on a solid-state amp.
• I expected Schiit Asgard 3 to sound more precise, accurate, and neutral with none of the extra warmth that a tube amp supposedly adds.

Result:

• Of 50 tries, I guessed 24 correctly. The keyword here is "guess" as in I had absolutely no idea. I kept on trying to listen for that richer midtones, extra warmth, and slower response but there weren't significant enough differences to my ears to confidently say that which amp was which.
• In fact, the transition was so smooth at times that I had trouble telling whether my friend had even switched the amp.
• On tracks that I guessed the correct answers, I provided wrong answers when I revisited it in another round of test.

Tl;dr: I a/b tested a solid-state and a tube amp. I can't tell any difference reliably. There are supposed to be audible differences, right? What should I be listening for? Or is my hearing damaged? Do I need to go see a doctor?

 

[solderdude]

Now you know you can get on with your life.
Don't need to upgrade any more unless you need other functionality or looks or want to free cash.
You can season your headphone with EQ if desired and can spend funds on other things in life that may be more important.

Keep both amps or sell the one you don't use that often. Won't be hard to sell either of one.

Looks like the test was performed well enough.

Others may say your ears are at fault (not audiophile enough), jitter was the cause, used a poor DAC or the wrong headphones. You used the wrong cables. Did not upgrade your mains cables, experienced stress, used music that is not revealing or a zillion other reasons.

Just know what you now know.

You neglected to state which frequency you used to calibrate output levels, which meter and the method of coupling.
Using an AC voltmeter may have been easier and more accurate.

How did the friend fare ?

 

[BDWoody]

Hi everyone, I recently created the following setup to A/B test some of my headphone amps and am quite shocked, humbled, and confused by my result. Could you please share your thoughts and if this is normal? I'm seriously questioning my hearing abilities now and wonder if my hearing is somehow damaged.

Some background about myself:

• I am a 30-year old male
• I have owned my gears for more than 3 years, so I am familiar with their sounds (or so I thought)
• I don't have "golden ears" but I can pass the ABX High Fidelity test (http://abx.digitalfeed.net/) ~70% of the time.

The gears I put to test:

• Headphones
  • Sennheiser HD800
  • ZMF Atticus
• DAC
  • HRT Music Streamer II+
• Amps
  • Schiit Asgard 3
  • Bottlehead Crack with Speedball upgrade

My A/B testing setup:
View attachment 35277

Procedures:

1. Volume match both amps playing pink noise and measuring the volume using a SPL meter. The volume was set at around 79DB. I realize using a SPL meter is not the most scientific approach to volume matching, but this seemed good enough for my purposes--and it was since I couldn't tell any difference.
2. Wear the headphones, close my eyes, and play several different songs (a mix of .FLAC on Foobar and songs streamed from Google Play Music)
3. Have a friend randomly switch between A/B and ask me to write down my guess as to which amp is playing.

Expectation:

• I expected Bottlehead Crack to produce richer and more lush midtones. I expected it to sound warmer as many online reviewers and even myself had believed before today's test. I expected it to be slower in response and sound muddy when playing electronic music. On more intimate tracks such as "Writers in the Dark" by Lorde, I was certain I could hear the fleeting breath and voice to last a split second longer on my tube amp than they did on a solid-state amp.
• I expected Schiit Asgard 3 to sound more precise, accurate, and neutral with none of the extra warmth that a tube amp supposedly adds.

Result:

• Of 50 tries, I guessed 24 correctly. The keyword here is "guess" as in I had absolutely no idea. I kept on trying to listen for that richer midtones, extra warmth, and slower response but there weren't significant enough differences to my ears to confidently say that which amp was which.
• In fact, the transition was so smooth at times that I had trouble telling whether my friend had even switched the amp.
• On tracks that I guessed the correct answers, I provided wrong answers when I revisited it in another round of test.

Tl;dr: I a/b tested a solid-state and a tube amp. I can't tell any difference reliably. There are supposed to be audible differences, right? What should I be listening for? Or is my hearing damaged? Do I need to go see a doctor?

Welcome to the forum! No need to doubt your ears...now you can properly categorize uncontrolled subjective listening reviews.

Welcome to a much more stress free audio existence. You've convinced yourself, with your own ears, with a solid set of controls, that most claimed differences will disappear along with the biases you've controlled for.

You've jumped off the crazy train, and are standing on solid ground...

 

[daftcombo]

Congrats! As Solderdude stated, now you know.

The Bottlehead Crack is supposed to have very high 2nd Harmonic Distortion according to these measurements:
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...bottlehead-crack-technical-measurements.5473/
(-40dB if I interpret correctly)

slower in response and sound muddy when playing electronic music

Plenty of "descriptions" like that one everywhere on "hi-fi" sites.
I read that my NAD D1050 was supposed to be terrible on electronic too, making Kraftwerk listening an awful experience

 

[Fluffy]

I'm sure plenty of subjective audiophiles tried to perform this test on themselves and came to the same results. The difference in this case is that you had the honesty to admit to yourself that you can't hear the difference, without making up excuses. This takes self-awareness and if you admit that publically to other audiophile friends, guts. Good for you!

From now on every time you feel like you hear some huge difference between gear, you can recall that experiment and ask yourself "would I be able to detect this difference in a blind test?". If not, than there is no need to worry about it.

 

[Purité Audio]

Fluffy did you make or buy your A/B switch?
Keith

 

[Veri]

Congrats! As Solderdude stated, now you know.

The Bottlehead Crack is supposed to have very high 2nd Harmonic Distortion according to these measurements:
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...bottlehead-crack-technical-measurements.5473/
(-40dB if I interpret correctly)

This is without speedball, though. The speedball should make it measure much better/'normal', so with a good build and with the speedball I'm not surprised any "difference" is hard to hear or simply, not there. With sensitive 'phones you would hear the crack's noise floor, though, the reason why I dislike tubes...

 

[Fluffy]

Fluffy did you make or buy your A/B switch?
Keith

Umm was that addressed to me or to OP? I don't remember mentioning I had an A/B switch…

 

[flipflop]

According to manufacturer specs, Asgard 3 has an output impedance of <0.2 ohms and Bottlehead Crack has one of 120 ohms. With the HD 800, the latter translates to a higher SPL centered around 100 Hz:

Instead of listening for meaningless audiophool terms, try listening for an increase in bass response. Use tracks with kick drums.

 

[Fluffy]

According to manufacturer specs, Asgard 3 has an output impedance of <0.2 ohms and Bottlehead Crack has one of 120 ohms. With the HD 800, this translates to a higher SPL centered around 100 Hz:

I also thought this could be an issue. But on one hand, it's barely a 1.5 DB increase over a small region so I'm not sure it will be very audible. And secondly, if he passed through an A/b switch, wouldn't that affect the impedance the headphones "see"?

 

[digicidal]

I think the most likely answer is already given, and I don't think there's anything wrong with your hearing. Although I think there are likely some audible differences - they will be slight, and impossible to find unless you know exactly what to listen for ahead of time. Sort of like telling the difference between driving at 60mph and 61mph (although that's not really a good analogy).

One thing you might try is training your listening skills. Although that's only going to do so much, but it will help in discerning changes in a given frequency and what that sounds like with a musical selection... which can help a great deal in finding differences.

I'd say the better question is: "Do you not like how they both sound for some reason?" - seeing that you now know any differences are negligible at best. If you do, then bonus... extra amp! If not then read some reviews and (as a shortcut) give one of the THX amps, or a DX3 Pro a go.

 

[solderdude]

1 dB more lows for 120 Ohm (measured) HD800S
So when average levels were matched +/- 0.5dB over a very wide frequency range could be difficult to spot.

 

[Fluffy]

Yep. If he really carefully matched levels and put on a pure tone at 100hz, maybe he could tell that its changing volume when switching. In real music it sounds very difficult to spot.

 

[daftcombo]

Don't you think that a modification of tonal balance (like + or - 1dB for the whole range under 500Hz) is easier to spot on speakers than on headphones?
On headphones we are a bit lost as to where the sound come from, whereas on speaker we tend to imaginate the sound stage more, and if sounds come from far or close.
I don't say it would be that easy neither.

 

[DonH56]

Don't you think that a modification of tonal balance (like + or - 1dB for the whole range under 500Hz) is easier to spot on speakers than on headphones?
On headphones we are a bit lost as to where the sound come from, whereas on speaker we tend to imaginate the sound stage more, and if sounds come from far or close.
I don't say it would be that easy neither.

No, or at least I find it much easier on headphones. However, speakers, and their interactions with amplifiers and room, are much (MUCH) more likely IME to exhibit modifications of tonal balance.

 

[ahofer]

Good for you. I had a similar experience with a new Class D amp and an old Nelson Pass design. Nearly as different as SS amps can be. I also used a decibel meter. The faster I could switch, the less I thought I could hear a difference. Selective attention had me initially, but ironed out.

Incidentally, don’t the Schiit guys kind of like the harmonic spuriae of tubes? Perhaps they have allowed some of that in the Asgard, I can’t remember the measurements.

 

[audiophile]

Tubes do not necessarily mean "warm" sound. It is totally possible to build tube amp that sounds like a solid-state amp and vice versa.

In my system, I was able to get warm, neutral and bright sound just by tube rolling 12AU7s in my pre-amp. You want slightly rolled off highs and rich midrange? Try NOS Mullards CV4003

 

[ahofer]

https://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup...s-his-thoughts-with-an-amp-maker.79659/page-6

The choice of headphones may have removed the characteristic frequency variability of tubes....

 

[SIY]

Tubes do not necessarily mean "warm" sound.

Gordon Holt used to describe "tube sound" as "bright, forward, and alive."

The concept of "tube sound" is 100% bullshit.

 

[solderdude]

Tubes do not necessarily mean "warm" sound. It is totally possible to build tube amp that sounds like a solid-state amp and vice versa.

In my system, I was able to get warm, neutral and bright sound just by tube rolling 12AU7s in my pre-amp. You want slightly rolled off highs and rich midrange? Try NOS Mullards CV4003

Can you make some basic measurements using a PC and RMAA ?